Shaban Shaame on EverdreamSoft’s Spells of Genesis Gaming Economy (Episode 288)
Shaban Shaame joins us to discuss EverdreamSoft’s Spells of Genesis Gaming Economy.
Shaban Shaame is the founder and CEO of EverdreamSoft, a Geneva-based company founded in 2010 that is pioneering the use of blockchain technology in the global game industry.
Shaban graduated from the University of Geneva where he studied Information Technologies and Business. His first game was the successful trading card game Moonga, which was launched in 2010. The game was an early example of a mobile Collectible Card Game (CCG) in the style of established games like Hearthstone and Magic The Gathering. The game did especially well in Japan, where for a while it was one of the top 10 games on iOS.
In 2015, Shaban got interested in blockchain and for the first time he created a tokenized game asset and planted the seed for the NFT market today. His latest mobile game Spells of Genesis was launched in 2017. SoG has been designed specifically to allow players to purchase and trade in-game cards using either in-game currency (through traditional in-game purchases), cryptocurrency, or both.
The very first blockchain cards (FDCARD) was released in March 2015, 5 months before the start of the ICO and 2 years before the release of Spells of Genesis. FDCARD was distributed as a reward via FoldingCoin for sharing hash power to help find a cure for cancer. One of the very limited FDCARD was sold for 110 ETH (363 809,60$) on 13/01/2022
Today, Shaban and his team are developing their blockchain technology into a fully-featured platform, giving them the ability to turn something virtual into something tangible and own-able. Shaban also co-founded the Blockchain Game Alliance (BGA).
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The following transcript was created using artificial intelligence. There will be some grammatical errors below.
00:00:03:23 – 00:00:17:03
Richard Carthon: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Crypto Current your host here with Richard Carthon. And today I have a very special guest all the way out in Geneva, Switzerland, working on a really cool gaming project. We have Shaban, who is the founder of Every Dream Store. How are you doing today?
00:00:18:00 – 00:00:18:26
Shaban Shaame: Great. Great.
00:00:20:16 – 00:00:26:14
Richard Carthon: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show. And first, want to learn a little bit more about you. Can you give us a little background on yourself?
00:00:27:25 – 00:00:52:17
Shaban Shaame: So I’m founder of Evergreen Softs, so I started the company right after my university study. But before that, I always like to develop game and they learn programming on on my own because I wanted to be able to put
00:00:54:07 – 00:01:14:10
Shaban Shaame: to to make my dreams or what I see a reality. So I learned programming when I was high school and even before, and I started with the first game before my university studies a trading card game that I did on the web
00:01:15:26 – 00:01:49:29
Shaban Shaame: in early 2000s. And then after that I after my university studies, I decided to take this game that they did and party to a mobile. It was the very beginning of the iPhone and that was an opportunity. So I thought I would take this game and make a professional living out of this project, taking advantage of the, the opportunities that were coming with the the mobile.
00:01:51:02 – 00:02:27:00
Shaban Shaame: And then after that. So I in 2010 started of Dream stuffed with our first title, munga. That was a trading card game. For those who are familiar, it’s a bit like Hearthstone strategic card game and it was very early. There was very few mobile game at that time and the space was very fascinating and the space is mobile gaming because there was innovation like cool things popping up every day.
00:02:27:23 – 00:02:56:25
Shaban Shaame: You would have news, new feature, new new technologies. That was early 2010 and moved all along. Was this this first title before getting boards with the gaming mobile gaming that was then become the mature markets with a lot of people, a lot of content. So then I decided to move on to something else.
00:02:58:09 – 00:03:20:28
Richard Carthon: Got it. Okay. So you finished university. You get really excited about, you know, building your dreams into reality. I’m doing that a lot through the gaming system. So you are building these games through your company. Ever dream soft? What was that first introduction into cryptocurrency like? How did you first hear about it? And then what made you want to to bridge this new innovation with every dream soft?
00:03:22:21 – 00:03:54:26
Richard Carthon: So first I heard of Bitcoin was around 2012, a little bit before Mongox crashed the infamous Mongol crash. I read some news like tech news like I do often, and they were talking about this thing called Bitcoin that you could mine. That was a bit strange. Okay. I thought okay. And it was a price of $100 and I thought I should get some.
00:03:55:05 – 00:04:19:18
Richard Carthon: And then I was complicated. I forgot. And then I read another news like, wow, bitcoin went from 100 to 200. And I thought, oh, I, I missed that. I missed that. So I should really do something this time. So I went to get my first Bitcoin.
00:04:21:18 – 00:04:56:19
Shaban Shaame: And so it was very speculative at the beginning, just writing on the price. Then I started learning about it and it was a very fascinating I thought, that’s the future. That’s really a game changer. It’s not only attack, it’s something much bigger. And every day I could learn something new, see new projects, ideas pumping out of blockchain. At that time, you you have to figure out that there was no Etherium or or something to like.
00:04:56:21 – 00:05:06:05
Shaban Shaame: It was really about a cryptocurrency token in creation of of of currencies and.
00:05:08:15 – 00:05:45:16
Shaban Shaame: At that time, there was some projects like Bold Colored Coin. And and the idea behind colored coin is that you could use Bitcoin to create some sub currency. So basically you take a Bitcoin and you say, okay, this flag as, I don’t know, my own currency and then when I trade this bitcoin, I actually trading something else behind. So not only the Bitcoin, but also some other flags or colored coin in a sense.
00:05:46:08 – 00:06:18:15
Shaban Shaame: Then counterparty came and I was fascinated because it has the same property ideas, colored coins. But there was an exchange, a dex integrated into the protocol. So basically you could create your currency, calling it Shabbat and for example, or whatever name you want, saying, okay, it has this amount of supply and you could just have it created and you could start exchanging it trading for one
00:06:20:22 – 00:06:32:15
Shaban Shaame: currency to another currency. So I thought, okay, so we have this first game monger and we notice that people are exchanging cards, game cards,
00:06:34:22 – 00:07:06:06
Shaban Shaame: exchanging cards for real money under the table. And it had monetary value, but you couldn’t really trades inside the game themselves because it brings a lot of other problem, because if you are custodian of people value, that would be the cards. You cannot allow that to have a monetary value because then you need to be a bank and then people will hold a support.
00:07:06:08 – 00:07:35:15
Shaban Shaame: And as for reversing transaction or or whatsoever. So I thought what if we could emulate things to blockchain or the Bitcoin counterparty in that case? Well we could Emily physical worlds so having a night them that when you have it you own it for real and nobody has power on that item except yourself.
00:07:37:02 – 00:07:37:23
Shaban Shaame: And
00:07:39:25 – 00:08:12:29
Shaban Shaame: this was the, the, the, the very first idea of using blockchain at that time, there was no similar projects using a currency. And instead of saying it’s a currency, you say it’s a game assets or a piece of art, or it represents something visual. So this is how I started with spells of Genesis. And quickly, I noticed that people will need the wallets because all the wallets were targeted toward the currency.
00:08:13:09 – 00:08:50:15
Shaban Shaame: Not really nft like so not only item but a list of currencies. So you have this currency, this currency, this currency, and it would be better to see, okay, you have this picture, this picture, this picture, this picture and be able to send to another user or trades on a decentralized exchange like a training this item, this game item, which is not necessarily a currency. So that’s how it started and that’s how we created the first collectible cards.
00:08:51:02 – 00:09:21:06
Shaban Shaame: And there was two ideas. So one would be to have it cross compatible because it’s also a possible on blockchain is you could have same item usable in several products. So we used manga the first cards where used to be on manga label but also card that will be played in another game of future game spells of Genesis that I wanted to to start.
00:09:21:23 – 00:09:40:09
Shaban Shaame: So in 2015, we released the first cards of a long series of cards that are still continuing today on the blockchain counterparty because at that time, Etherium main net was even not released.
00:09:41:05 – 00:10:16:18
Richard Carthon: Right. So let me just do a quick recap. So you when you first got into crypto, you were learning about Bitcoin and you learned about the example of how you could basically use these altcoins that were having Bitcoin basically be the, the, the back end of like where the value is and then being able to then have your own custody to, to use that however you like. And so you kind of use that concept over for your game where you’re noticing for from. Leave where people would be off market to buying to buy and sell and create this on an economy where there is monetary value attached to the game.
00:10:16:21 – 00:10:48:00
Richard Carthon: However, for you as the owner of Web and being in Web two and mobile gaming, you didn’t want to be the custodian. You didn’t want to have to be a bank where you’re having to worry about all this stuff and worry about paying people back, etc.. So you wanted to figure out a way for your players to be able to be their own custodians, and you potentially could be able to make money from them, making exchanges, doing whatever, and getting a percentage of that. But you personally, are you the company not having to be the custodian of those types of transactions?
00:10:49:05 – 00:10:51:25
Shaban Shaame: Yes. Yes, correct. And
00:10:53:18 – 00:11:35:13
Shaban Shaame: there was a big challenge at that time because when I discussed with other game developers, they were not very happy with the system or not. Very many people believed in the system. First, the cryptocurrency was unknown, so that was one problem, or related to drugs or the many different kind of bad, bad press. That was one thing. But the second thing was okay, but what’s interesting from a game publisher point of view is that if it’s digital and people cannot trade among each other, you can sell twice the same item to two different people.
00:11:35:21 – 00:12:14:10
Shaban Shaame: But if you allow people to trade among themselves, then you are selling once and then two people will benefit. And one bet that I took was to say yes, but people are likely to spend more, much more money if they own the token, if it’s not something that’s made vanish at any time. So people will spend more. So it will be more interesting from a game publisher point of view to create those kind of item versus pure digital items.
00:12:14:16 – 00:12:54:08
Shaban Shaame: And if you compare it to physical trading card games, for example, people who are playing both like physical and digital and they are spending more money on physical card game, but they play more often on digital. So it means that they invest more in physical. And when you ask, people will say yes, they spend more because it’s something they only can touch. It’s more concrete. But the thinking of it, it’s not necessarily that the fact that you own something physically and it, you know, it retains value.
00:12:54:10 – 00:13:07:00
Shaban Shaame: You can resell at any moment even if you don’t do it. The fact that you think, okay, I’m owning this has a much more power and and value.
00:13:08:09 – 00:13:28:24
Richard Carthon: Sure. And which kind of brings us to present day. So ever dream soft. Right now we have three core products that you’re kind of working on. So you have spells of Genesis, you have Orb Explorer, and you also have Coast cast a token wallet. So can you just give us an overview of of of currently like what are these three items in other things that every Dream Self is currently working on?
00:13:31:01 – 00:13:34:19
Shaban Shaame: Yes. One interesting thing,
00:13:36:16 – 00:13:45:06
Shaban Shaame: one interesting thing I said, our work is also and we used to be always ahead of of our time.
00:13:47:07 – 00:14:21:11
Shaban Shaame: One thing that happened is when we started among our own counterparty know spells of Genesis, some counterparty in the issuing token Ethereum came out and a lot of people were saying, okay, you should migrate to Ethereum. So the thing was this thing was, come, the party’s over now. Now there is a better tag. And especially because Ethereum was much, much more cheaper than a Bitcoin transaction at that time and faster.
00:14:21:18 – 00:14:32:16
Shaban Shaame: So everybody was saying, okay, Ethereum is cheaper and faster, so why would do we care about about this old crap anymore?
00:14:34:09 – 00:14:41:15
Shaban Shaame: But the what I notice is the technology is not only
00:14:43:01 – 00:15:20:06
Shaban Shaame: how fast is it or how cheap is it, it’s about also governance. So using Ethereum or today, Solana or EOS at some time in the past is also your core belief who should be in charge? What are the rules? Who are the rule maker and everybody opting for a system or another? In that time we saw a fork between Bitcoiners and Etherium Maximalists and some people became Ethereum Maximalists Some people stayed Bitcoin maximalist.
00:15:20:15 – 00:15:34:00
Shaban Shaame: Then there’s other chain and you find other kind of maximalists for for for a new chain. But all these are opportunities or people. I see them as a country.
00:15:35:25 – 00:16:08:06
Richard Carthon: Each country, they have their own system, their own governance system, and also their own currencies. So when you localize your game, for example, with one chain is like bringing your game to the U.S., for example. So there is a certain amount of people, a certain amount of money of revenue in this in this specific area of the world. But you can also have another country where people are different. They have other rules, other value, other currencies.
00:16:08:20 – 00:16:39:24
Richard Carthon: And everything we did at this time was saying, okay, we are not moving to Ethereum, but we are doing Multichain. We’re giving the opportunity to people to own the card in the chain they want. And now today it seems a little bit more trivial because now there’s many chain and there are a lot of people are talking about multichain, but at that time it was absolutely not trivial.
00:16:39:26 – 00:17:33:11
Richard Carthon: You are either a Syrian or or bitcoin or or EOS. That came a little bit after. But you were not people were not building and designing for multichain. And so we migrated our business a bit. We shifted our business and I said, okay, now we are very early into crypto thing and people will come into crypto later on in a few years and instead of competing with them with the game like spells of Genesis itself, when Hollywoods, when Ubisoft Electronic Arts will come, we won’t be able to compete with them because they’re going to have a lot of cash, a lot of content, a lot of developer will put in the product.
00:17:33:24 – 00:18:13:06
Richard Carthon: So I thought, okay, we are going to build tools that are multichain by essence, allowing people to handle their NFT and tokenized assets in the chain. They want to localize their content into the different chains and the different community and that’s what we are still doing today or makes a little more. Laura, you mentioned it, but basically today when you want to look at your collection or see transaction for every chain, you need to go to etherscan.
Want to learn more on Web3? Check out our articles here.
00:18:13:08 – 00:18:51:02
Richard Carthon: If you want another chain Polygon, you need to go to Polygon scan. If you have them on Solana, another another protocol. So it’s not convenient from a user perspective, but also from a game developer perspective to query they. Ownership of nfts across multiple chain because you need to connect to every one of each of those service. And from the core aspects of Genesis is based on our toolsets that we’re developing internally, which are multichain by essence and specify.
00:18:51:04 – 00:19:27:21
Richard Carthon: Genesis is compatible with three chains right now. Counterparty historically Ethereum Clayton which is another one, but also we are adding Binance, GAM and Solana and other. And when we add a new chain in this tool, everything that use this tool becomes compatible to this new blockchain. Whether you want to transfer from an exchange play, everything is is compatible. And so today only spells of Genesis is compatible because we’re building it and testing it with fields of Genesis.
00:19:28:00 – 00:19:43:03
Richard Carthon: But in the future we’re going to open it to, uh, to any, any developer to be able to use tokenized assets and if these was very few lines of, of development and code.
00:19:44:01 – 00:20:19:09
Richard Carthon: Real quick, I want to speak to that. I think that’s a really important point. So interoperability has always been a large issue across the industry. We have a lot of these different ecosystems, let’s call them all a bunch of islands, whereas you need a lot more bridges to connect all the islands together. So they play nicely. And so you’re not having to go to a bunch of different explorers to be able to first see your assets and then being able to move them across chain. It’s a use. It can be costly. It takes time and is not super efficient. And you have a lot of vulnerabilities for something to go wrong and you potentially do lose your assets.
00:20:19:11 – 00:20:37:20
Richard Carthon: So what you’ve been able to create over at Dream Soft is a way to play your Genesis game and basically be able to move across all these chains and be able to do it in a simplified and quick way that the end user doesn’t have to really figure out or do a whole lot for it to be able to move cross-chain.
00:20:38:22 – 00:21:14:27
Shaban Shaame: Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. That’s what we built. That’s what we are also concerned with that we also continue to build is this bridge to really simplify from the user perspective to the game developer perspective for for integration. And the third tool that you mentioned, but it’s actually not a third tool is kind of inside the same idea and ecosystem is that you can so that you can for example is a wallet that is compatible to the chain.
00:21:14:29 – 00:21:54:10
Shaban Shaame: That’s our core system use. So it’s compatible today with Etherium and Counterparty. So as a player, whether you want to use Ethereum or Counterparty, you receive both of this address when you use this wallet in a transparent manner. So you don’t have to go left and right to get ten different wallets, just one where you can use all your any fees and interact with the game in a unified and unified process and as a token is a part is a stone of this crystal suites, which is this multichain tool.
00:21:54:26 – 00:22:31:13
Shaban Shaame: So I would say we have three, three ways. Evidence of one is the product contents of Genesis. Second is Crystal Suites. That includes Ford Explorer as a to come in the open source dev tools. And there is the third, uh, parts which we didn’t talk a lot yet and disclosed, but it’s even even more ambitious, even more cooler and even more visionary.
00:22:31:15 – 00:23:16:22
Shaban Shaame: Because I have to say multi-chain now is something like on everybody, everybody, everyone small. But we are working on blockchain for to certify NFT and what is certifying NFT is to certify the link between the assets and the token. The asset would be the game item, the piece of cards, and the token is the smart contract that have the token. Because we work on Multichain for a long time, we identify that there is a critical flaw into nfts and tokenized assets is this link between token and asset.
00:23:16:24 – 00:23:47:03
Shaban Shaame: If few people really catch that, but it’s happening more and more. I’ll give a very simple example is I can create a piece of art and say it’s unique and issue a contract in token on Ethereum and saying, Hey, this unique piece of art, look at the contracts, only one existing. I can trace back everything perfect, but I can take a Solana on Solana.
00:23:47:05 – 00:24:27:14
Shaban Shaame: I can create the new contracts, a new token, and saying, okay, it’s the same. It’s linked to my piece of art. So on Ethereum you will be able to verify that’s unique. And on Solana there is another one, which is another chain. The when you work into indexing all of this chain, you understand and you notice that this link between the token and asset in between and even with Ethereum, you can have two contracts that are representing the same assets, which is at the link between the token and the assets can be broken.
00:24:28:01 – 00:25:01:28
Shaban Shaame: Or other example, if I take a mickey Mouse, for example, I draw a mickey Mouse and I create a contract on Ethereum and I sell it or on Opensea for a lot of money. Then this name can come and say, Right, okay, this token is fine, but this is not Mickey Mouse because we own Mickey Mouse and we never agreed to that. So they will go to Opensea and say, Hey, please remove this image. And everywhere where the image will appear, they will say, please remove and everybody will will have to comply.
00:25:02:09 – 00:25:23:09
Shaban Shaame: So you will end up with your token, right? The token will be there. Impossible to take it from you. That’s perfect. But you don’t own the Mickey Mouse, but you are sure to have it. But the link between the assets and the token is broken. So what we’re working on is a
00:25:25:03 – 00:26:00:13
Shaban Shaame: decentralized authority, a blockchain, basically to certify the relationship between a token and asset. To certify that an asset is. Surely related to a certain token that is actually unique and that is not breaking any low, etc. This way you can save yourself from a lot of scams and and issues that are raising today and that will continue to erase in the future.
00:26:02:14 – 00:26:37:27
Richard Carthon: Yeah. That’s pretty remarkable. And it’s I appreciate you spend the time to like walk through some of the critical challenges that are happening in the world of Nfts. Like you said, the link between the true asset and the token that kind of shows where it’s at and bridging that together. So you’re creating a blockchain to authorize or to be an authorization tool to see to help solve this issue and then to help verify these assets and these tokens that represent them or being the same no matter what chain you’re going across, whether it’s the same or you’re going cross-chain, etc.,
00:26:38:09 – 00:27:08:25
Richard Carthon: everything falls distinctly. So I think that is a really cool tool and I think what you all are building at Upstream Soft, this is very innovative and there are, I’m sure, even more things coming in your pipeline, but for someone who’s listening to this right now, they’re like, Oh my gosh, this sounds really cool. I wanna learn more or I want to participate in the in the game and be able to be one of the first users of this new tool for NFT verification. When it comes out, how can they learn more? How can they start to participate?
00:27:09:27 – 00:27:48:12
Shaban Shaame: So what is the name of the chain that we’re building? We have no public disclosure in terms of website and stuff like that. So the best thing is to follow ever dreams of Twitter. Here, there there is old info discord as well. Here you will discover a lot of vintage NFT spells of is like our whole story that we have around the cards and also will disclose everything about what quickly on on on those on those platform.
00:27:48:20 – 00:28:22:03
Shaban Shaame: So if you are interested to know more and if you are not afraid of things that are a bit ahead of of of their time because now and if these really it’s it’s Mars it’s used by stars and everybody knows about the NFT. But when you go to this cutting edge technology, it’s a bit of a leap into your the way you think, the way you invest and vision and technology that you need to do this step.
00:28:22:05 – 00:28:36:09
Shaban Shaame: So if you are courageous enough to to do this step, I’ll really invite you to join our social media to, like, follow our story and be crazy as as as we are.
00:28:37:23 – 00:29:14:05
Richard Carthon: Excellent. Well, for everyone listening, if you want to rise to that challenge and do that, make sure you go participate and reach out. Which one? I always like to to wrap up with a few things, but the main one that I want to discuss now is as you look across, you know, the years of you putting all of this together and being in the crypto space and seeing how much it’s evolved, if you can impart one or two pieces of wisdom to yourself with the knowledge you have today to yourself, when you first got started building out every dream soft and kind of merging into this crypto space, what’s a piece of advice you would give yourself.
00:29:17:03 – 00:29:28:26
Shaban Shaame: An advice to myself that, um. Mm hmm. I can say where we can. I could improve. I can. I can still is.
00:29:30:18 – 00:30:01:28
Shaban Shaame: The the part of the communication. I should communicate some more on my personal social network because I’m really focusing too deep into understanding or having idea. And they say a lot with in, in myself and I would like to be able to express more. But the thing is when you do coding so you have a great idea and maybe that’s my issue because I do codes.
00:30:02:17 – 00:30:47:06
Shaban Shaame: And when you are a founder, it’s another job. But I like coding because I want to see it live, I want to to see it so to make it and then it’s done. So I would say advice to myself. I try to, to, to communicate more even in my team, like the whole vision and find the people to, to, to create it rather than doing too much on, on, on myself or refraining from communicating, you know, early on to before, like proving it.
00:30:47:08 – 00:30:58:21
Shaban Shaame: So I like to prove and then communicate, but I should be more communicating on on that way and other. Yeah.
00:30:59:19 – 00:31:30:09
Richard Carthon: That’s, that’s a really good one. Effective communication. Everyone may not be able to see your vision, but if you can at least communicate what you’re building towards, people can help you get there a lot faster. You potentially can yourself. And it’s also as you are building this amazing thing, being able to communicate that out to others so they know that what you’re doing and want to participate and be a part of that as well. I think that’s a really good, um, reminder for a lot of people listening to this and founders, etc.. But Siobhan, you know, you’ve given us a lot to think about. You’re giving us a lot of really good information.
00:31:30:15 – 00:31:33:13
Richard Carthon: What’s the final thought that you want to leave with all of our listeners here today?
00:31:35:18 – 00:32:06:15
Richard Carthon: I think I really believe the game changer was and is tes and all this blockchain tech is a the world will change will change a lot. We are going to move from the creation of one company, a product created by companies selling to customer to products that are co-created, and people will add little elements of audio.
00:32:06:17 – 00:32:39:19
Richard Carthon: Compositor will create the little elements, some designer, illustrator, game designers that are coming from the community and everybody can monetize things to blockchain their creation and make sure that everybody gets paid for the creation. And it changed everything because you can have stakeholders that are much more large than employees of the company or a real stakeholder of the company, but the whole community. So the devil, things that we see a lot, it’s just the beginning.
00:32:39:21 – 00:32:56:03
Richard Carthon: It’s emerging. I mean, it’s already crazy and people can anticipate that there is a change, but there is really, really a big fundamental change on how project will be built. The company will be run and we’re. It’s just the beginning. So.
00:32:57:23 – 00:33:29:12
Richard Carthon: For sure. It’s exciting time to be in this. We are still building out a lot of it. And you’re not late to the party. Find something you’re passionate about. Learn more about it. Find ways to participate. And I think, Siobhan, that’s a great reminder and we definitely appreciate that. As a reminder for everyone listening ways that you can connect with every dream stops. You can go to every dream satcom, go connect with them over on Twitter. And also I believe you can connect with them on Discord and Telegram. Are there any other places you think would be good for for them to go to?
00:33:30:09 – 00:33:54:03
Richard Carthon: Yeah, that’s the main ones. Forget we have Facebook and stuff, but of course, these days that’s that’s not the best place. But you can follow me directly on Twitter. Don’t hesitate to ask me a question directly there. I said I want to communicate more. So the more like impulse you give me, the more I will communicate to them as they do. Follow me. Someone on this course show me
00:33:55:18 – 00:33:56:24
Richard Carthon: as my Twitter handle.
00:33:57:25 – 00:34:08:04
Richard Carthon: Excellent. Well, sir, much may. Thank you again. Spend some time with us today. We really appreciate all the information you’re able to drop. And of course, all of our listeners out there stay crypto current.
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