Ritik Dutta on Leveraging Your Reputation to Access Capital-Efficient Loans with Sublime Finance (Episode 229)
Sublime Finance: Dutta joins us to discuss accessing capital-efficient loans by leveraging your reputation with Sublime Finance.
Sublime was founded by Ritik, a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign. He is deeply involved in machine learning research – exploring issues of privacy, fairness and causality, and their domain-specific applications in healthcare.
The following transcript was created using artificial intelligence. There will be some grammatical errors below.
00:01:06:27 – 00:01:24:15
Richard Carthon: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Crypto Current, your host here, Richard Carthon. And today I have a special guest all the way on India working on a project a, project that you need to learn more about. Figure out how you can continue to evolve your finances using Web3. We have great tech with sublime finance. How are you doing today?
00:01:25:21 – 00:01:27:05
Ritik Dutta: I’m doing good, how are you, Richard?
00:01:28:00 – 00:01:45:03
Richard Carthon: Man, I’m great. Crypto is booming at the time of this recording, so you know you’ve had new all time highs. I is happy in crypto verse right now and I’m hoping that we keep chugging into this glorious direction, but we’ll see. But want to learn more about you? Can you give us some background on yourself?
00:01:46:00 – 00:02:19:19
Ritik Dutta: Sure. So I’m involved in crypto and defined gender for the past one year or so. And most of it has been just thinking about credit and lending and gender. So before that, my primary background actually happens to be in machine learning, more specifically machine learning, research, but healthcare. And so what I used to do was generate synthetic datasets and also sort of study aspects of privacy, preservation, fairness, causality exactly within the healthcare system.
00:02:19:29 – 00:02:21:20
Ritik Dutta: So in many ways, healthcare
00:02:23:16 – 00:03:06:17
Ritik Dutta: shows similarity to the idea of credit. So because a lot of it in the recent times has been just data driven, so there’s a bunch of people just trying to get denouncement status that gun and trying to build models on top of that. So the similarities are then. On the other hand, there’s also aspects that similar aspects of problems are started starting to see in both of these two. And so there’s issues of privacy, for sure. Then there’s also issues of fairness and bias. So how are the models that you’re sort of building on top of these datasets? How are they actually affecting the outcomes, which in turn feed into our models once again? So that’s kind of my brief introduction of abortion that I’ve also been involved in open source development for quite some time.
00:03:06:25 – 00:03:21:24
Ritik Dutta: So in my undergrad years, I was actually one of the maintainers for an Open-Source Python package, and what it basically did was it was used to a causal inference. So it’s like somebody’s niche subject within computer science. But yeah, that’s yeah.
00:03:22:04 – 00:03:53:25
Richard Carthon: Now that’s a really interesting background, especially myself, with having some background in in health care as well. It’s the importance of credit. And also, like you said, data is king and they are in health care costs constant, trying to find the best data so they can try to figure out all types of information and edges that they can have on competition and just understanding potential patients as well. And then you kind of brought up the whole point of ethical, you know, like it really starts to get a little fishy the more that you look into it, but it kind of just crossing over into the world of crypto. Like you say, you’ve been in it for a year.
00:03:54:01 – 00:04:09:05
Richard Carthon: You see how you can take some of the AI and the data sets and start to apply it into what is now going on in this space. So tell us about like, how did you recognize that opportunity? And then like, how did you then try to turn that into a company which is now a sublime finance?
00:04:10:21 – 00:04:48:26
Ritik Dutta: So my experiences with like health data within the healthcare sector in general that have led me to form the opinion that we are sort of wholly in the early stages was actually starting to build any kind of data driven systems within the FDA. So primarily in the traditional fintech sense of a lot of users that are currently using all of these crypto projects, they’ll fall under this category of 10 50 users. And they almost always tend to be based on some elements of that, typically just interacting with a few major protocols and have very few transactions in general.
00:04:49:06 – 00:05:20:00
Ritik Dutta: So you start to see the same kind of biases that get picked up in any other kind of data driven system says. So what usually happens is you start to feel more towards people who have a lot of data so that you can build good credit reports out of them. So in the current scenario, it would probably be some institutions and baba use. Also, like continuously using these, you can actually transact on Ethereum continuously, and then that turns into a vicious cycle.
00:05:20:07 – 00:05:50:14
Ritik Dutta: And then if it’s so, so once you start assigning good credit scores to the power users by grades goes to the normal users. That means that the power users can start accessing credit even more so that means they can start transacting even more compared to the average users. So that becomes a cycle of its own because of which the gap tends to increase. And that’s something that you noticed with other sectors of the data driven sort of areas as well, like health care, for instance.
00:05:51:26 – 00:06:24:26
Ritik Dutta: And in some sense, it also tends to be a limiting factor because it just depends on how much information is able to gather about different users. I think traditional banks, for example, are not like evil corporations that want to lock people out of access to credit. It’s just like this and be able to gather enough data about you. So if you’re not using a bank at all, then any credit bureau won’t be able to build any kind of credit reports on you. So what we’ve seen happening in the iteration of fintech world is like people are taking.
00:06:24:28 – 00:06:56:22
Ritik Dutta: These different verticals of data sources, whether it’s mobile data, whether it’s your college education background, and they’ve been building these siloed versions of credit scoring within that specific sector. But as I mentioned, so these inherent disadvantages do not. And that’s also the reason why a lot of companies in the past 20 years have also been fiddling around with the idea of peer-to-peer based lending rates on peer-to-peer. In some sense, that’s historically been how credit has worked.
00:06:57:11 – 00:07:34:25
Ritik Dutta: Initially, you would probably like lend out your friends and family members and colleagues would be your community members, your local village level, for example, and you had these mutual lending clubs, lending societies where people would exchange credit information. So that’s really been the idea of lending, and in general, it tends to be more intrusive. But obviously, there’s downsides to it as opposed to the borrowing capacity is typically low for any peer-to-peer network. So if you might be able to borrow $100000 from a bank, but from your friends and families would probably only be able to borrow 10 gave, for example.
00:07:35:07 – 00:08:15:08
Ritik Dutta: So there’s definitely tradeoffs in using P2P networks as well. And in some sense, there were a lot of different P2P companies in the past 20 years to try to do this online, but they simply couldn’t do it. So for a variety of reasons. Lending Club funding circle? I think so. So all of these are examples of web based P2P companies that eventually end up turning into banks themselves. And there’s a host of reasons for why it tends to be difficult to hold B2B models and normally that so like, it’s hard to integrate any kind of socialist philosophy of offline B2B action.
00:08:15:10 – 00:08:25:17
Ritik Dutta: It depends on social competencies, depends on relationships within government. So that’s almost impossible. That’s an online 2.0 system. And then there’s some other
00:08:27:06 – 00:08:39:07
Richard Carthon: set of regulations and privacy concerns as well. So, like many B2B companies, can start accepting deposits until they have any kind of banking licenses, for example. So there’s a lot there’s
00:08:39:17 – 00:09:11:01
Richard Carthon: there’s definitely a lot of hurdles and sorry to interject real quick, but there’s there’s three things I want to unpack with that. So the first is that first, there’s not necessarily enough data sets within DeFi to really have data driven decisions just because there isn’t enough background on people, especially in the decentralized world and similar not in me, not really understanding past history, et cetera, on on credit utilization. The second is then how do you do this in a true peer to peer lending situation where you don’t have as much access, you typically can’t be lent as much money.
00:09:11:18 – 00:09:52:19
Richard Carthon: You’ve said something interesting, which is a lot of these P2P personal lending are sending to each other ultimately end up becoming a bank. In the first example I came to my head was Venmo. I first got on Venmo, I loved it. And then all of a sudden they truly became like a bank. And now they’re trying to charge interest in all this other kind of stuff when you like, are using their platform. So it’s interesting that they all slowly become a bank, and it’s like history really does repeat itself in that capacity. But now you’re kind of shifting into like where we currently are, like now, how do you turn this type of lending into more of a social experience to where the greater world can come and utilize the platform and still have it be a a social event instead of it truly being like, Hey, I’m going to deal with this bank.
00:09:53:18 – 00:10:25:10
Richard Carthon: Right. So there’s also like good reasons for why those companies need to turn into a bank eventually. So typically what happens is that there’s always excess supply for money and it is actually. So there’s almost always not going to be enough borrowers that can actually start earning that can actually borrow from these kind of companies. So they start going, you do need to start providing extra products like build extra stuff to actually keep lenders money within the platform itself. Otherwise they’re not going to deal with there forever.
00:10:25:19 – 00:11:08:05
Richard Carthon: So these are definitely legitimate reasons for why those companies need to turn into banks. But on the other hand, with inventory like we’ve seen of. Alternate versions of what could be possible, right? So, for example, one of the things that we did with my building sublime is like thinking through what will happen with your money when you’re not actively finding any photos you want to lend money to on some nights. So we have integrations with Compound V and a bunch of other like passive use under DDoS attacks. If you don’t find anyone attractive, like you won’t find a particular border you want to lend money to, then your money can directly be transferred to a compound or having to keep an eye on know like God and God bless you.
00:11:08:14 – 00:11:43:08
Richard Carthon: So that’s kind of one of the innovations study for has come up, but in terms of the possibility of different protocols. On the other hand, we are also seeing the formation of different kinds of reputation networks, but de facto, right? So for example, in traditional finance, there’s a lot of privacy laws that actually prevent you as a doctor and companies from sharing a lot of data. So if you go to prosper, for example, which is one of the P2P lenders, online P2P lenders, they have a bunch of different things on the platform, but all of them are anonymized.
00:11:43:20 – 00:12:15:28
Richard Carthon: So you’ll see some minimum bare minimum data. So like mowing the lawn as opposed to maybe it’s a home loan, for example, you’ll see the credit rating that price has provided to them and some other terms of the loan, etc. But within the five, we’re sort of seeing the emergence of like all of these privacy preserving features, naturally data. So dynamically, for example, is a huge thing within the and you might not know who is sitting behind a particular NFT avatar, but you can still assign some credibility and reputation to them.
00:12:16:11 – 00:12:40:26
Richard Carthon: On the other hand, like there’s the entire, you know, zero knowledge proof things that’s going to come in the future, that’s going to even sort of boost what you can do without actually dogs and people in some sense. So there’s a lot of things that actually come together quite well within the DeFi ecosystem that we personally think are very important to build a true P2P platform.
00:12:41:15 – 00:13:21:00
Richard Carthon: Definitely. Even when, as the world is moving more to the metaverse and thinking about, you know, the big Facebook announcement. And now if you’re seeing a lot of these metaverse, crypto’s projects that are out here that are booming because of it and thriving in the fact that you like you said, you can start to track with these avatars, these NFTs. And being able to like, go across different metaverse is and still have some sort of identity across them all could be very beneficial as you go from each one and still need some access to finances within each of those worlds. Those metaverse is, if you will. So just break it down for for your brand new person who’s like, OK, what is sublime finance? What are you accomplishing? How can I use it in my everyday life?
00:13:24:17 – 00:13:52:13
Richard Carthon: Hey, cryptocurrency, Drew. This is Steve Miller, and I’m the host of CSI Live show that keeps you up to date with what’s poppin off in crypto in every episode of CSI Live brings you. The latest news keeps you updated on the top projects in decrypts. Everything you need to know to get ahead in the wild world of Web three. So if you really want to stay cryptocurrency, join Richard, Chris and I every Tuesday and Friday at seven p.m. Eastern, only on YouTube Live. So what are you waiting for? Subscribe to cryptocurrency YouTube channel today! And as always, stay cryptocurrency.
00:13:56:04 – 00:14:33:22
Ritik Dutta: So what we’re trying to do three main things, the first thing we’re trying to do is build the infrastructure for taking out loans, so we have four parameters that we’re building within ourselves. So there’s the verification aspect, so we allow users to start attaching their wallet addresses with different identities. Second, sort of subdivided into two parts is how the loans actually take place. So we have two different ways in which loans can take place. And so these will be sending in which a single border, it creates a term sheet in some sense, like they set up all of the different parameters of the bulletin.
00:14:33:24 – 00:15:03:27
Ritik Dutta: So what they want to borrow, how much they want to borrow, the maturity date, collateral ratio, etc. and then multiple lenders can come in and satisfy the single loan request. So, for example, if someone wants to borrow 10000 USD, I can just have 9000 USD out of the entire 10000 a month. So that’s the first broad based lending structure. The second is credit lines. So credit lines are quite different in terms of how you want to look so they don’t have any and don’t.
00:15:04:01 – 00:15:13:07
Ritik Dutta: So as long as neither party actually closes the credit line, it can stay active and the borrower can essentially keep on
00:15:14:27 – 00:15:45:10
Ritik Dutta: moving on in drawing capital from the lender, a savings account and repaying it over time as long as they maintain some collateral requirements that resulted in the credit line creation. And then we also have our own savings account feature, which sort of has this passive strategy integrations. So that’s the first thing that we’re trying to do. So building out the infrastructure. The second thing we’re trying to do is anybody use us to start building or chain could have triggered. So naturally, not everyone is going to start off with welfare credit history.
00:15:45:12 – 00:16:22:10
Ritik Dutta: So there’s going to be some who will have enough reputation to start borrowing or local police, whereas some will still have to start, at least build a reputation over time by showing that they’re reaping the loan something. And then eventually they’ll be able to start building on the collateralized. So one particular aspect about that’s different about supply in general is like loans. Incentive, then can also be end up. So in general, within DeFi, there’s been just two alternatives like these either collateralized loans or collateralized loans, which is what to value is to some extent in real quick.
00:16:22:20 – 00:16:48:10
Richard Carthon: It’s just I can break that down for people don’t necessarily understand that. So I’m off a collateralized loan means, let’s say I’ll put in one ease and in return, they’re going to be half a eith worth of liquidity that I can go use. And then whenever I pay that back, plus a little bit of interest, I get my money back and I keep moving. I’m collateralized means, hey, I don’t have to put anything up. You’re just going to give this to me, but I have to pay a higher premium on the amount that I get back. So I just want to clarify that right?
00:16:48:16 – 00:17:18:16
Richard Carthon: And semi collateralized debt under collateralized is somewhere in between, so you don’t necessarily have to put in zero collateral. You can just put in 50 percent or 60 percent collateralized loans as well. So the second thing we’re trying to do is build these kind of in credit histories to determine a longer term goal for us is to eventually aggregate the credit to a good start. So in some sense, build out credit scores in some sense by aggregating the data that we collect from a bunch of other users.
00:17:18:18 – 00:18:06:24
Richard Carthon: So like, for example, if I as a borrower have a bunch of other trusted individuals who say that I think is a good borrowers, then what does that say about my aggregate credit score? So eventually, the like. So you can think of it in some sense as a social graph, right, in which there’s a bunch of users who start assigning risk of credit scores across scores to other people? And then how do you actually move capital between this graph in the most optimal way? So let’s say I’m connected to you and you’re connected to someone else, then how should Coppertone move from me, the actual person who, whenever they are in need of some loans and you might not have any capital, but you are not doing so? Building out this sort of aggregate model is also something that’s a no longer term balance.
00:18:07:17 – 00:18:43:05
Richard Carthon: That’s great. I mean, those are. Three, really, really. Necessary tools, and I think what’s going to be interesting is it sounds like I was trying to become like the credit bureau of the DeFi world, right? So you’re you’re basically creating a model to where users will be able to identify themselves as trustworthy creditors so they can get a line of credit to be able to go and get more access to even more funding instead of kind of like, you know, right now in the world of DeFi, you kind of just guessing and hoping like this because most are collateralized.
00:18:43:12 – 00:18:51:05
Richard Carthon: So if you don’t even have the money in the first place, you’re not going to get the loan. But this is going to allow some more unique tools for people to have access to funding.
00:18:52:15 – 00:19:29:23
Richard Carthon: Right. Yeah, in some sense, we actually see ourselves as a decentralizing, the credit was good, so so like the credit risk assessment. So then that’s sort of what I was talking about is different kinds of stakeholders. That is what are you doing, borrowers? This is also going to be institutions on these dollars themselves who can borrow for any kind of Treasury management practices. So and within these dollars are community members on their own. And so now you actually have the question of once you have the dollar borrowing from other users, those dollars, those can not start lending capital to its own community members.
00:19:30:01 – 00:20:02:25
Richard Carthon: So in some sense, within this dog, there’s going to be a better assessment of who is out of the credit worthiness of each other than someone outside of this dog being able to do so. So in some sense, we are just decentralizing it to stakeholders in sort of their own local levels and then building aggregates out of it by going and sort of seeing through what people are assigning amongst each other. Entities are saying amongst each other right now that
00:20:03:18 – 00:20:37:11
Richard Carthon: it’s it’s going to be very helpful. And just thinking about the greater crypto world right now in the last last 20, 2020 was DeFi summer, and it’s evolved a lot. And now you have other elements that are coming in place like NFTs, metaverse, et cetera. But DeFi is going to, I think, helped fuel a lot of these different entities as they continue to come into play. And one of the quickest ways to be able to have access to funding to continue to get into some of these different projects is through being able to borrow against your crypto.
00:20:37:21 – 00:20:48:18
Richard Carthon: So as you look at like we’re the entire crypto industry is sort of headed, what do you think are going to be some of the biggest opportunities in this space, let’s say, over the next two or three years?
00:20:51:23 – 00:21:22:04
Richard Carthon: I think NAFTA is definitely a very interesting idea, especially because it’s something that’s found sort of mainstream appeal. So like a lot of what we’re doing in the folk identity style infrastructure, buildings like naturally, not a lot of people are actually interested in that. So they just want to use the and the and so for a lot of use for mainstream users, what matters is the end user experience. And currently in DeFi, the user experience is actually one of the missing factor.
00:21:22:06 – 00:21:44:14
Richard Carthon: So I think something that you’re going to see. So we definitely going to see a lot of socialization aspects in terms of dollars and NFT is gaining a lot more mainstream appeal. And over time, I think we’re also going to see improvements of user experiences. But yeah, I think that’s true. I mean, in my band, that’s probably still going to take some time. Right?
00:21:45:05 – 00:22:16:20
Richard Carthon: No, I agree. And. As this continues to be developed out, how do we get to mass adoption that’s going to be anybody can pick this up and immediately understand how it’s being used. That’s really how everything in the background is working for it to work, but is able to pick up, have a quick interface that is very user friendly and do everything that they need to and without them really having to again understand all the finer details of DeFi. Because right now, as you know, to get into the world of DeFi, there are a lot of steps to be able to do it.
00:22:16:22 – 00:22:49:03
Richard Carthon: And the more steps we can eliminate, the faster we are to getting even more people in, which means more liquidity, which ultimately makes everyone happy in this space. But man, you’ve you’ve been in the space for a while, and I’m sure you’ve learned a plethora of insights knowledge. And I know you’ve been in the world of crypto for about a year or so, but even just taking all the knowledge that you have right now could impart wisdom to yourself when you just first got started into like your career and as you were learning everything like what are one or two pieces of wisdom you would tell yourself?
00:22:51:01 – 00:22:54:27
Richard Carthon: Right. And probably too green to actually start giving myself advice, but
00:22:56:17 – 00:23:07:23
Richard Carthon: I think initially when I started off, when Defoe saw my initial exposure to this and the ecosystem was actually through this normal
00:23:09:12 – 00:23:19:05
Richard Carthon: sort of knowledge of a blockchain that’s also within during my undergrad years. So there’s a bunch of different research articles that are looking into using blockchain to
00:23:21:02 – 00:23:40:23
Richard Carthon: do actually share medical data between different hospitals. So I think that’s what I initially picked up blockchain to engender. But over there as well, there was sort of a lot of skepticism about which I personally had, as well as what the community, the research community in general to have because
00:23:42:14 – 00:24:14:05
Richard Carthon: there are certain aspects to it which we really didn’t see scaling up. So there was a lot of skepticism around blockchains back in the day, and that’s also something that I heard when I started getting into DeFi, but eventually so. Rather than giving myself that opinion, if there’s someone if there’s some opinion I’d like to give to people who are just getting into defense are starting to hear about to burst out. There’s a lot more to defy than the prices of dog tokens.
00:24:14:19 – 00:24:28:12
Richard Carthon: A lot of people associate crypto with. So people think about crypto as just being prices moving without actual utility or anything being built. But there’s a lot more to that that I wish people looked into. Yeah.
00:24:28:29 – 00:25:04:04
Richard Carthon: So it’s just a good reminder that before you dive in on, let’s look at the pricing, look at what’s being built and look at what has substance and it should help bring you further. I like to give an example because this is the latest one in the news. The squid games rug pull for people who got unfortunately involved in that before you just go an ape into a project. It’s really good to look at what’s being built. What are they actually trying to accomplish and does it have utility? You should have your own list of things that you look for before you just absolutely just put money into something, and you hopefully will be able to avoid some of these scam coins that are out there and will continue to exist.
00:25:04:09 – 00:25:14:06
Richard Carthon: They’re going to be more in the future. So you got to keep finding ways to protect yourself. But what is a as we kind of wrap up here, man, what is the final thought that you want to leave with all the listeners here today?
00:25:17:26 – 00:26:03:29
Richard Carthon: I think one final thought that. I’d like to leave people alone with us to just start exporting and get on the boat, getting deeper into different generals like one of these strong aspects of the the entire sense of community amongst a bunch of different users and within protocols itself. So Twitter is probably one of the initial four steps that people do. But there’s the whole new ecosystem of like people just interacting with each other in discord as well. So like each one of these protocols of their Discord channels, and you often end up meeting of the same set of people in different channels and the other ones who would probably give you the most amount of information and are probably going to be the most helpful for you to start getting started in general.
00:26:04:09 – 00:26:13:16
Richard Carthon: So what I’d suggest to people is to just get a bit more curious about what you’re building and crypto finds it and then just start diving in some sense.
00:26:14:10 – 00:26:24:12
Richard Carthon: Excellent. I think that’s a final. Great final thought. Thank you for sharing that for everyone that wants to connect with you and learn more about sublime finance. Where can they find additional information?
00:26:26:18 – 00:26:34:02
Richard Carthon: So some blended finance is on that side. So that’s probably the best place to start. And I think we also have our Twitter and other social media where that’s so
00:26:34:20 – 00:27:08:05
Richard Carthon: perfect, right? Really appreciate you spending some time with us today. And of course, for everyone listening. Stay cryptocurrency. Hey, cryptocurrency crew. We want to give a quick shout out to all of our faithful listeners out there. It’s been an amazing journey and we really appreciate your support throughout the years as we’ve been growing as a community. Each episode, we decided that we would start sharing some of the reviews that you were leaving for us. For today, we would like to share this review. Today’s review comes from Jay Bauer Underscore Crypto Amazing Podcast for both beginners and the crypto world. Or if you are a seasoned veteran, learn so much from this podcast and Richard’s awesome questions.
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00:27:43:06 – 00:28:18:19
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00:28:28:13 – 00:28:37:13
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00:28:50:25 – 00:28:53:09
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