Dor Garbash joins us to discuss on Mina Protocol – The World’s Lightest Blockchain.
Dor Garbash, Head of Ecosystem at the Mina Foundation, leads developer programs and grants and is also focused on establishing processes for ensuring decentralized governance and high community engagement. Prior to joining Mina, Dor was Head of Product (Governance) at IOHK, the organization behind Cardano. He also worked as Product Manager at DAOstack. In his 9 years of experience leading product teams, Dor delivered industry-leading decentralized treasury systems, governance, and incentive structures. Dor earned his PhD in applied computer science with a focus on collective intelligence.
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The following transcript was created using artificial intelligence. There will be some grammatical errors below.
00:00:17:07 – 00:00:37:15
Richard Carthon: Tell everyone. Welcome to another episode of Crypto Current, your host here with your car. Today I got a special one for you. We got someone all the way out in Berkeley, California, working on a protocol that you’ve probably heard about, but I’m excited to dive deeper into. We have Dawg Garbus, who is the head of ecosystem over at Mena Foundation, who works with the MENA Protocol. How are you doing today?
00:00:38:24 – 00:00:54:17
Dor Garbash: I’m doing great. You know, just a beautiful, beautiful Tuesday. We had rain all week here, but today’s nice and shiny and you can see all the fresh, you know, the kind of cement of freshness in the air and. Yeah, and we really happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
00:00:55:00 – 00:01:03:17
Richard Carthon: Oh, absolutely. Appreciate you being here. Before we go, dive into all of the amazing things Mina’s up to was first learn a little bit more about you. Can you give us a little background on yourself?
00:01:05:20 – 00:01:38:15
Dor Garbash: I’d love to. Well, you know, first of all, this is my second career, okay? My in my twenties, 2030s, I was actually a photographer. I had a photography studio in Tel Aviv and. Did a lot of media productions and creative work, you know, commercial fashion and whatever, you name it. And then they did a little. Career Pivot Twenties technology finished with HD, working on collective intelligence and collaboration in larger organizations.
00:01:39:01 – 00:02:02:22
Dor Garbash: And after that, I worked in some some of blockchain companies, like I was head of product for Dow Stack, which was one of the pioneers of that for managing and deploying Daos on Ethereum. After that, they transitioned to be head of governance in the for Cardano and for IO HK.
00:02:04:07 – 00:02:36:10
Dor Garbash: Where I was basically the one of the people who were driving and project catalysts, which is, I think I can call it the largest decentralized innovation fund in the blockchain space. You know, it’s like we had more than 50,000 active voters and funded, well, more than 10,000 projects and several billions of ADA, like in dollars worth of tokens.
00:02:36:12 – 00:02:48:05
Dor Garbash: And, you know, and like, you know, kind of grew in a very short time. And yeah, and a few months ago I joined and a foundation as their individual system.
00:02:49:03 – 00:03:22:16
Richard Carthon: Wow. Now, that is the robust background and there’s a lot that we’re going to go back and unpack a little bit later in this conversation. But I do want to start with this initial question, because there are a lot of people who are building in this web3 space who are entrepreneurs, who are builders, and there are a lot of people who are aspiring to potentially break into this space. For all of those who are going through the transition of potentially changing careers are looking into something like what it by-sa. What compelled you to just go for it and not just go for it? Like you went and got a whole Ph.D.
00:03:22:20 – 00:03:25:12
Richard Carthon: Like you went deep into this. Like, what would you tell those people?
00:03:26:17 – 00:03:29:27
Dor Garbash: That’s a great that’s a great question. I think.
00:03:32:04 – 00:03:33:24
Dor Garbash: Yeah. I think it’s it’s.
00:03:35:17 – 00:04:09:15
Dor Garbash: You know, I can only share my, my personal story, which I think is a lot about being able to take inventory. You know, once in a while I would recommend people every every five years take inventory about your life. You know, are you happy with your career? Because fulfilled, you know, are you a is this something you want to continue to do for the next five years, you know, and give yourself that opportunity to. To really reflect and kind of have the courage to to do to to to pivot and change and don’t be angry, judgmental.
00:04:09:17 – 00:04:32:21
Dor Garbash: Right. Like, you know, the person you were when you were like 20 or 25 or 30, like different people, you know? And if you do things right or you change through life, you know, your preferences change because you grow and you learn. So, you know, then don’t they, the offense, they they play offense in your life. Yeah. I think, you know.
00:04:33:00 – 00:05:00:27
Richard Carthon: That’s great. I really think that is a really good piece of advice. Think like you said, taking inventory. I recently did that myself and made some goals and five years later, just coincidental kind of did the same thing. So but getting back into all the amazing things that you are doing now, doing in a web3 space, you have a robust experience across a ton of different ecosystems. What made you want to join the MENA Foundation and now what has you fired up about? All the things that MENA has going on?
00:05:02:02 – 00:05:03:20
Dor Garbash: Oh, definitely. So I’m.
00:05:05:12 – 00:05:09:14
Dor Garbash: I’m an innovator. Okay. My passion is my passion is to
00:05:10:29 – 00:05:42:22
Dor Garbash: inspire people to to create and build new things and explore. So I’m naturally really, really attracted to the edges of the tech, you know, like things that are like, right at the at the forefront, you know, that are like, there’s kind of a Goldilocks zone, right? Like somewhere between, you know, you don’t want to go too far, like some kind of really abstract math that’s like maybe in 15 years become applicable, you know? And you also don’t want to be where everybody’s already built and you’re just optimizing.
00:05:43:14 – 00:06:19:14
Dor Garbash: And it’s, I think, kind of mean for me, like really fits in this Goldilocks where, you know, zero knowledge is such a. An amazing domain and there’s so much innovation going on and it’s hardly explored. And I think that this was really compelling for me right there, opportunity to help help the the builder community and I mean, really explore the potential of this technology. And so I think that for me was like the main one, but also just, you know, I also just like the I really like the people, I really like the vision.
00:06:20:00 – 00:06:39:12
Dor Garbash: And I felt I was intuitively okay from just talking to the people. And it and it was very clear. It’s a very human centric blockchain and like it’s I really. I think there’s a really compelling. Vision for.
00:06:41:07 – 00:07:12:23
Dor Garbash: For governance and fairness and and the sense of like that. It’s a grassroots blockchain. So which is always something like, you know, I think I feel like underneath Miriam, I like also share that, you know, the feeling of what we’re doing is a bit bigger than just like making money, making profits or, and, or being an opportunist. But there’s like a larger global vision behind, behind what we’re doing. And I’m, I’m always into it’s always really appealing feeling for me.
00:07:13:09 – 00:07:43:15
Richard Carthon: Yeah. And thanks for explaining that. So you like to be at the forefront of different technology and what’s on the edge and you brought up zero knowledge. So I mean, is building the privacy and security layer for Web3, the world’s latest blockchain powered by participants using zero knowledge technology, creating infrastructure for secure democratic future we all deserve. So expand on that so that the core what is it around zero knowledge that that mean is really trying to bring to the forefront and innovate.
00:07:45:06 – 00:08:23:04
Dor Garbash: Yes. So it goes in three, three buckets. Okay. One is privacy. Okay. So zero knowledge when it enables you is basically to. To prove, you know, something, but without revealing the details of it. Okay. So, for example, I can I can using this technology, I can say prove I’m. My age is over 18. Okay. Like in order to get a driver’s license, but I don’t have to disclose my exact age, I can just prove that I’m over 18 or, like, I can prove that I’m, like, eligible for a loan.
00:08:23:06 – 00:08:53:21
Dor Garbash: You know that I can. I’m good for the loan, but I don’t need to. As you know, with now is, you know, I think everybody renting a house, like renting a house, maybe there are similar expenses that you don’t need to photocopy like your bank transactions and like all sorts of all sorts of like a lot of private information you have to share with landlords or whatever, you know, like, so that technology can actually give you a verifiable proof that that’s your you’re good, but without having to disclose that information.
00:08:53:23 – 00:09:24:28
Dor Garbash: So it’s way more be out. And I I’m really happy to talk more about privacy later but but I would say that’s like for me. Probably the main focus of what’s going to happen and what’s happening right now in next year with with me now, like the enabling of privacy, preserving applications we call Z, k X and the second one and I think this is what’s more known about the knowledge is scalability.
00:09:25:23 – 00:10:06:07
Dor Garbash: Okay. So a lot of a lot of the ones now are trying to build scalability based on zero knowledge technology just to improve like how much transactions and like how much how much how much capacity does the network have to to process things. And the third is the sickness. So and one of the most powerful thing that that Mina managed to to prove to the world is you can actually take this much knowledge and make it very practical If you if you take the allergy, I’ll give you an example of the sickness.
00:10:06:09 – 00:10:39:13
Dor Garbash: Okay. So if you take you look at the Ethereum. And you want to validate that this whole blockchain is actually valid. That’s like hundreds of gigabytes of data that you need to download and go through and invalidate in order to prove that the network is sound. With me now, it’s 22 kilobytes. Oct 20 kilobytes is something that you can you can you know, it’s your pocket watch, you know your calculator probably, you know like 92 kilobytes of information.
00:10:39:29 – 00:10:58:05
Dor Garbash: Right? So it’s great. You know, it’s it’s democratizing. You know, the, the, the running of of the blockchain in a way that was unparalleled. And just the proof of it’s really, really scraping the surface of of their knowledge of technology.
00:10:59:10 – 00:11:39:09
Richard Carthon: That’s really cool. And I think those are three really important points. Security’s always going to be massively important. One of the biggest things in a lot of these protocols and ecosystems have been hacks and scammers and other ways that people unfortunately have been getting exposed and losing money. And security always will be at the forefront as people in these situations and ultimately responsible for what’s occurring. And then the next piece of it, like you’re saying, with the scalability piece of it, with what you’ll have going on with the Z, got those really sound interesting.
00:11:39:19 – 00:11:53:15
Richard Carthon: And I believe you’ll have a lot on the roadmap for what’s going on there and the like you said, how small it is like that still blows my mind is that the whole blockchain can be put on 22 kilobytes. That is tiny. That is extremely tiny.
00:11:56:17 – 00:12:14:06
Richard Carthon: Of course we could get into the whole how and why. But what I want to spend time on is now that you have these three core components. I mean, it’s been around for a while. I’ve been building out a ton of different things. What have been some of the big milestones that you think occurred this year and what do you think people should be excited for headed into 2023?
00:12:16:05 – 00:12:59:12
Dor Garbash: Yeah, I think so. This year the you know the race of the mean that was the thing you know I think it’s like, you know a lot of people can talk a big talk about zero knowledge but you know walking the walk and shows like oh wow, oh, wow. We actually have in production maintenance, running, you know, implementation of zero knowledge that translate into this, you know, this this, this small efficient blockchain. And that’s a really, really like, you know, kind of putting the stake in the ground. And I think now now we’re in a period where we like leveraging that and growing the ecosystem beyond with is this is bringing the game to life.
00:12:59:20 – 00:13:44:00
00:13:44:02 – 00:14:09:04
00:14:10:20 – 00:14:47:04
Dor Garbash: That’s the I like to call it, like the Cambrian Explosion. Okay. Like the brief moment in time. Like at least that’s my what I hope is going to happen that. As we as well as we would like, fully launch the other ecosystem programs like next year. With this like very accessible technology. We’re just going to see an explosion of many, many different applications building and businesses building on top of me now and basically like exploring and discovering all the different use cases for privacy.
00:14:48:01 – 00:15:23:16
Dor Garbash: And I think I think it’s really important to, you know, we all. Talking about. We all will care about privacy. Okay. I think we all know what’s what’s going on in like how how disenfranchised. I think each of us feels, you know, about about their data. We know not just tax, but just like how companies just use, you know, they crawl and they steal more and more and more on your privacy and you see more and more how governments are using this this information to to control you and and and.
00:15:24:18 – 00:16:10:06
Dor Garbash: And I think it’s not just about being defensive about privacy. It’s like it’s like a bit defensive about privacy. And I think what happens in what’s possible in a world where, you know, your your privacy is guaranteed. Like, so I think this is a word like like and it’s hard to shift that perspective. But, you know, I think a world where and, you know, you can vote or you can watch your opinion without fearing censorship. Okay. A world where and you can expose you can be a whistleblower, you can expose corruption, or you can be or even think example of like the millions of people who are die every year working in construction sites around the world.
00:16:10:24 – 00:16:23:25
Dor Garbash: And and they can’t really whistle blow because they can guarantee their privacy like they care about their job and with the family. But what if what if you could guarantee it? You know what? What if exposing corruption
00:16:25:11 – 00:16:56:23
Dor Garbash: is something that’s easy, okay. And and safe and or what if, like a lot of problems that people have that are associated with some kind of a social shame, you know, images like, like, like addiction. Okay. Or sexual disease or and mental mental issues like all these things because people are so, you know, don’t want that to be broadcasted into the world. They have these problems that they have very limited access to, to resources.
00:16:56:25 – 00:17:30:26
Dor Garbash: You know, what? If I what if I was like, what if I was dealing with addiction? But instead of having to just one supplier that, you know, one one provider that can help me like. You know, get over it. You know, I could broadcast this night over a large network of suppliers that can compete and offer me different services because I’m not afraid that my identity is going to be revealed. Okay. Or what can happen if the world has a global system for voting? That guarantees your privacy that you can vote, you know.
00:17:31:01 – 00:18:08:15
Dor Garbash: Remember these images I don’t know if you following the Ukraine war, but like these images of, you know, the annex parts of Ukraine where Russian troops are like, okay, you know, you go and vote. Yeah. Cast your vote here. And like the person to whom I wonder what happens if I vote against being annexed. You know, so that kind of stuff or, you know, a lot of countries right now are like sort of democracies and even current democracies, even in the U.S., like. That the, you know, the integrity of democracy is just being constantly challenged.
00:18:09:13 – 00:18:39:15
Dor Garbash: And, you know, we can prove with math, you know, that that your vote is that you are a real person. You know, that your vote has been casted correctly. And it’s you know, and it’s and that we maintain your privacy. And we can make it globally available. We can make every every human on the planet could have a fair right, you know, to to to have a voice. And so, you know, these kind of things are kind of moonshots, but they’re possible.
00:18:39:17 – 00:18:43:06
Dor Garbash: You know, they’re getting unlocked with this technology.
00:18:44:25 – 00:19:08:12
Richard Carthon: So going through this, it’s very apparent that privacy is very important in your in your passion about it. And with you being part of the ecosystem and building that up. How would you say the community is perceiving Mina and and what are the what are the conversations around privacy within the community that you see?
00:19:11:05 – 00:19:56:22
Dor Garbash: Yeah, I think people are pretty much all lying about it. And, you know, I think that’s what really excites them about about me now. We think just like a whole wave of a whole wave of of developers that are. Really excited about it. It’s like, you know, you get all sorts of flavors, you know, some people are really attracted to. Two division and youth cases. I think to a lot of people, I just think they’re knowledge geeks, you know, they just like. I feel happy to see that technology moving to the next stage after being a bit in their background for many years and and just want to learn and understand and and you know, I have a lot of technical questions about it and and what its limits and cetera etc.
00:19:56:24 – 00:19:59:12
Dor Garbash: and. And.
00:20:01:12 – 00:20:17:14
Dor Garbash: Yeah. I mean, the thing yeah, I think that’s exactly like and so I think about some of the dialogues as I like with the youth cases and like, how can I use this technology? And I think that the majority of conversations.
00:20:18:20 – 00:20:50:03
Richard Carthon: So just to jump backwards for a second. One of the things that you went and studied and got a lot of information on was around governance and being able to work on one of the first bills that was out there. That’s living in a Web three worlds. Most communities and companies are decentralized. How important do you think governance is and will continue to evolve as more and more daos are being introduced and as daos potentially evolve over time?
00:20:52:23 – 00:20:57:10
Dor Garbash: It’s a great question, I think. Personally, I think that.
00:21:00:23 – 00:21:32:23
Dor Garbash: Kind of like most of the world. The problems that we see in the world right now, like the big challenges of the 21st century, are around governance. Okay. When you think about. Climate change or finance or. Or even like, you know, the current like wars and conflicts. These are all questions of governance is our questions of like, how is the actual humanity coordinating our actions in, you know, in in a good way and are we doing a good job like as.
00:21:32:28 – 00:21:49:16
Dor Garbash: Doesn’t seem doesn’t seem like it. You know, like if we handled COVID in a really great way or were we very fragmented, you know, and not thinking about the greater good and to resolve these kind of issues. So. I think it’s like governance is the.
00:21:51:03 – 00:22:23:24
Dor Garbash: They really like basic DNA. Okay. Of of a lot of these problems that needs to be and we must we must explore a new ways of governance, you know, and invalidate them and evolve them over time and do this fast because, you know, because the clock is ticking. And and there is there’s a lot at stake, you know, for our planet in general. And I think. I think with DALSTED, I think what’s really fascinating with them and the reason I’m like, first of all, I.
00:22:25:06 – 00:22:59:20
Dor Garbash: Not not really a big lover of the term now, because I think it’s been so misused and abused and that that it almost detracts from the conversation. But. And I think that. The essence is incentive. Okay. So, you know, you can come to. You can come to a lot of. Different organization and group. So they have a bunch of like interesting methods for you, how to how to communicate and coordinate and use collaboration platforms and like blah, blah, blah.
00:22:59:22 – 00:23:06:23
Dor Garbash: And like, you know, in order to, to become better, more coordinated and more representative, etc., etc., but.
00:23:08:09 – 00:23:57:26
Dor Garbash: In the end, the king is the incentive. Okay. Like if you look at any organization, any, any state, any country, any, any system, what’s the backbone of the system? It’s like the incentive design behind it. It’s like it’s like if everybody aligns themselves around that. So think about traditional organizations that are hierarchical in nature, you know, like whether it’s your school or, you know, you have job in a big corporation or if you’re in the military or in university or, you know, your government, you know, all these places, they have a very basic incentive system where your goal as an employee or a member is to please your boss, right? If you are to please your boss or you can collaborate with your immediate colleagues.
00:23:58:12 – 00:24:39:13
Dor Garbash: And because you all work, because you are working together with your boss. So you’re, you know, and so so everything aligns around that. But then you have this crazy, crazy myth coordination and lost opportunities, you know, like, like I’ve seen so many stories, you know, put this out like the trillions of dollars lost in, like knowledge transfer between departments, you know, for international companies and stuff like that. But also like even in research, you know, you see Ph.D. students that are working really hard on the problem and the person that can unlock their the issue, they have to have the expertise lives right right above them, like if you fit one floor above them.
00:24:39:15 – 00:25:15:00
Dor Garbash: But they’ve never been to that floor. You know why? Because they’re they’re more focused on pleasing their boss. Right. Than than than the actual funding of the problem. And instead, like an incentive design issue and daos and tokens really introduce this are ability to to architects and better incentive systems. And I think unfortunately a lot of those are just replicating existing structures rather than like experimenting. But definitely there’s a few, you know, I definitely seen in my own eyes.
00:25:15:08 – 00:25:50:29
Dor Garbash: And when that when you start to incentivize people to to collaborate or work together to solve challenges rather than like try to play as a boss, you see an explosion of creativity and innovation. People are liberated. You know, it’s it’s a very and, you know, so I feel a lot of responsibility in in my role and, you know, to to to keep pushing the edges of what’s possible in how we how we organize, you know, to to energize each other, be be creative and be and be coordinated.
00:25:52:00 – 00:26:26:03
Richard Carthon: Yeah. I think you brought up a lot of really good points. And the one that I want to harp on is it’s just the amount of creativity and innovation that incentives within Dallas can provide by having a common area, but then also presenting an issue and then saying like, Hey, we have this in reserves and whoever can come up with your creative plan to go in that and we vote on that and we can take that approach allows for people to present a lot of ideas and then not just ideas, but a pathway to solving it along with it, which I think is what’s really cool and something I’ve been observing with a lot of different our community.
00:26:26:05 – 00:26:41:23
Richard Carthon: So again, appreciate you sharing that. But within the MENA protocol in the foundation, there’s a lot of places you can go to get more information. You can go to MENA protocol dot com. But what are other ways that people can learn more about what you’ll have going on and get more involved in your community?
00:26:43:23 – 00:26:54:09
Dor Garbash: Yeah, we currently have this. So we launched like, you know, talking about all these incentives and like go and do and innovate and create and be part of this, you know, pushing the edge. So
00:26:56:08 – 00:27:35:12
Dor Garbash: we just launched what we call the Ignite Zero. Okay. This is a so this is a program that’s going to continue next year in very surprising and cool ways. Like if you want to be on the on the bottom floor, like being an early adopter of this and kind of be part of big part of like almost like leading this co-leading this movement with us. So you should register to participate in it. And it’s pretty much developer centric right now, but also people that are like entrepreneurial minded minded or a design minded are welcome to join.
00:27:35:14 – 00:27:53:12
Dor Garbash: So if you go. Yeah, I don’t know how to share like a long URL, but if you go to them. To mean to weaken protocols, Twitter or website. There’s like a link for joining the in that court zero. And I can I don’t know if there’s a check here but.
00:27:53:21 – 00:27:54:23
Richard Carthon: We can we’ll make sure.
00:27:54:25 – 00:27:55:25
Dor Garbash: We are or.
00:27:56:00 – 00:27:56:17
Richard Carthon: So nobody’s.
00:27:56:19 – 00:28:00:29
Dor Garbash: Appearing. So just people aren’t aware. I don’t know how you can share it with them.
00:28:01:21 – 00:28:04:03
Richard Carthon: Yeah, well, we’ll make sure to share it in the show notes.
00:28:06:16 – 00:28:22:16
Richard Carthon: And then just as we wrap up here, I’d like to finish with a couple of fun questions. The first is, with all the information you now have with your years of experience in the Web three space. If you could go in part one of two pieces of wisdom to yourself when you first got started, what would you tell yourself?
00:28:25:14 – 00:28:36:14
Dor Garbash: Wow. Okay. I think that’s a good way to reflect on that. But the and I think it is something that come to mind is.
00:28:38:08 – 00:29:11:18
Dor Garbash: First of all, it’s okay to not know. It’s okay to be vulnerable. And like, you know, there’s so many things, so much information. I think we all like a bit of information fatigue, right, from all that. Everything changes all the time. And like, you know, you need to read down into like synthetic paper and this and that. It’s like it’s okay to to say you don’t know. You don’t have to pretend you don’t know. And people appreciate if you read an authentic. So don’t don’t don’t worry about being a poseur.
00:29:11:20 – 00:29:43:01
Dor Garbash: I do think. I think. That everybody in the industry understands the challenges and that there is a learning curve. And, you know, find yourself in a place that’s not toxic, that people can help you support and grow your learning understanding rather than like everybody’s trying to pretend they know better than everybody else. And we figure out where that goes. Okay. Like the main exemplar of this vanity where it goes. So find the right, the right people you can be real with. And then fun often after high.
00:29:44:00 – 00:29:48:02
Dor Garbash: And maybe I just leave it at that. I think it’s pretty good.
00:29:48:09 – 00:30:13:00
Richard Carthon: I think those are two really good things to reflect on and a good reminder for a lot of people of of being in an environment that helps you be the best version of yourself and uplift you to to to keep aspiring to that to that next phase of what you’re either trying to build towards or grow towards. So definitely appreciate that door. But as we wrap up here, what is a final thoughts for the listeners here today?
00:30:15:16 – 00:30:16:29
Dor Garbash: I would say like, you know.
00:30:18:18 – 00:30:22:14
Dor Garbash: Can we start to think together about?
00:30:23:29 – 00:30:56:21
Dor Garbash: A world where privacy is a first class citizen and of the first concern and like. How does what is going to look like? And how do we want to take part in shaping it? I think for me, that’s the. That’s really the. The main provocation I have, you know, how do we switch from. A defensive approach where we’re just trying to, you know, just like prevent giant forces to eating into our privacy, into actually having a.
00:30:57:21 – 00:31:06:20
Dor Garbash: A vision of a privacy first world and invite the potential that lies in it for sure.
00:31:06:29 – 00:31:42:10
Richard Carthon: I think that is a good final thought. As it relates to privacy. We still have a long way to go, but I think zero knowledge proof helps us solve a lot of the challenges that we’re currently facing. And I think there’s already a path to having it be part of our everyday life. As we head into the future. And it sounds like Mina are taking the first steps to try to make that a reality. So as a reminder for everyone listening. Make sure you go check them out at MENA protocol dot com. Make sure you go and participate if you want to be one of these first people who are doing some really cool things with the z k Ignite.
00:31:42:18 – 00:31:51:03
Richard Carthon: We’ll make sure to share that in the show notes with you. And. Just want to say again, thank you so much for being on the show. And as always, for everyone listening, stay cryptocurrency.
00:31:51:19 – 00:32:15:04
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