Dan Hannum on Automating Your Crypto Taxes with ZenLedger (Episode 264)
Dan Hannum join us to discuss on Automating Your Crypto Taxes with ZenLedger.
Before entering Web3, Dan Hannum was a buy-side analyst and portfolio manager at TD Ameritrade. After becoming an early crypto investor, Dan went on to become an analyst at Blockchain Capital before founding Hannum Capital Management, an advisory and venture investment firm.
Today, Dan’s the Chief Operating Officer for ZenLedger – a leading cryptocurrency tax platform that’s been providing crypto traders and tax professionals with the most user-friendly tax and accounting software for cryptocurrency investments, trading, and fund operations since 2017. ZenLedger makes crypto tax reporting easy by providing a digital workflow to simplify, optimize, and automate the entire process.
As a Special Gift for Crypto Current Listeners, you can use the promo code CURRENT10 at checkout for a discount on your ZenLedger Subscription.
ZenLedger’s Official Website: https://www.zenledger.io/
Follow Dan Hannum on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DHannum8
Follow ZenLedger on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zenledgerio
Subscribe to ZenLedger’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyi5K_sxqLyVvwsKDJFazeA
Want more resources around this podcast? Keep up to date on the latest articles here.
The following transcript was created using artificial intelligence. There will be some grammatical errors below.
00:00:04:07 – 00:00:38:26
Steven Miller: Thank you for joining us for another episode of cryptocurrency. Just one quick reminder cryptocurrency is a cryptocurrency and blockchain education platform that’s bridging the gap between the curious newcomers who were just discovering the space and the thought leaders who are shaping its future. All opinions expressed by Richard Carr, Thorne, the cryptocurrency team and their guests on this show are exclusively their own. Opinions should not treat any opinion expressed by Richard. The team and their guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or to follow US financial advice. This show and any other crypto content production is exclusively for informational purposes.
00:01:16:14 – 00:01:38:07
Steven Miller: All right, what’s going on cryptocurrency through cryptocurrency, I’m Steven Miller, and you’re watching another part of our interview series here on the channel. As always, we are here to drive a connection for you to the leaders who are shaping the future of Web three. And today I’m joined by a great one of them. His name is Dan Hunnum is the CEO at Zen Ledger. And welcome to the show.
00:01:39:00 – 00:01:39:22
Dan Hannum: Thanks for having me.
00:01:40:16 – 00:01:49:28
Steven Miller: So I’m thrilled to get into this with you today, but just for our audience who may not be totally familiar with you. Give us a little bit of background. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into crypto.
00:01:50:17 – 00:02:23:12
Dan Hannum: Sure, sure. So my background is largely in traditional finance. I went to the University of South Carolina from under an MBA and then spent some time in New York and on Wall Street. Working at some bigger financial institutions kind of got bit by the crypto bug individually in 2012 2013, when I was still in school and then professionally and in 2015. And so as far, it’s enough to make the jump from traditional finance into crypto. Full time in 2015, at a firm called Blockchain Capital, one of the largest and probably earliest funds in the space.
00:02:24:11 – 00:02:58:08
Dan Hannum: And we’re primarily on their early stage equity side of the business as an analyst as meaning with a lot of crypto companies that were raising venture capital at the time and building like the core infrastructure for this ecosystem. And that was one of the first foray into crypto and was lucky enough about a year into that to be an ICO advisor for a project on Gear, which is a green energy and renewables token. And the advisory board we had was Larry King, very well known Stan Bardi, who runs a firm called for the Manhattan based out of Toronto.
00:02:58:17 – 00:03:33:07
Dan Hannum: And they got him Jim Rogers, who’s kind of a legend in traditional finance and was first enough to get them involved in this project. Early on, the opportunity nine bucks each and walked away with five, 10, 15 each in a few weeks. So it was a nice initial investment for them, and they wanted to get more interaction within crypto. And so that’s what kind of led into Hannam Capital Management, which was a early stage venture fund raiser. Twenty five million dollar fund in 2016 and then a seventy five million dollars fund in twenty seventeen started just to continue to invest into early stage crypto companies.
00:03:33:09 – 00:04:05:23
Dan Hannum: And one of the companies that we invested in was Ellingham, which is a crypto tax platform. I really saw kind of the use case for that platform as I was trying to figure out my own taxes. I was using Excel spreadsheets and Google Docs and had run nodes and trying to match them up with like either scan and block explorers. And it was kind of a nightmare since all the value from an investment perspective of what they were building to be very valuable. And then in 2019, one of the co-founders was stepping out of the company to to work with his family’s office.
00:04:06:28 – 00:04:25:12
Dan Hannum: And I was always looking for kind of the right opportunity to get back on the entrepreneurial side of the business and really build something instead of just investing. And that’s what led me to Zamunda in 2019. So I’ve been with them for three years now. And so I’ve been in crypto about full time, seven years and was about three years now.
00:04:26:06 – 00:04:29:02
Steven Miller: Awesome. So I guess suffice to say, you’re a bit of a crypto O.G.
00:04:29:20 – 00:04:31:08
Dan Hannum: I’ve been around the block a few times.
00:04:32:12 – 00:04:52:12
Steven Miller: That’s awesome. Well, again, I guess to break down Zen Ledger a little bit for our audience because again, a lot of our listeners are more so crypto newcomers and people who are just crypto curious. Can you give them a little bit of an understanding as to how Zen Ledger can help them with their craft, crypto tax reporting and kind of break down essentially how it simplifies it?
00:04:53:03 – 00:05:23:27
Dan Hannum: Sure. So I guess just start from a high level the there’s a few different things that make crypto tax reporting a little bit difficult. And the first is the IRS treats crypto as property, and they first came out with this guidance in 2014. And what I mean by that is instead of like forex, where you look at items and treat as a currency, you’re only taxed on kind of the end of your activity, right? Using go from dollars into euro, you’re onto yen, yen into whatever, and there’s no taxable event in between only, you know, when you come out.
00:05:24:17 – 00:06:05:03
Dan Hannum: The proper distinction within crypto is what makes things a little bit trickier because they are treating your eith and your bitcoin as separate pieces of property. So any time you trade bitcoin for ETH, you are selling your bitcoin and buying a theorem with the proceeds. So all of these crypto to crypto transactions make things a little bit tricky to follow. When you look at crypto taxes, there’s kind of three main buckets that we talked about would be dollars into crypto, so you can go from one to ten dollars, one hundred dollars, whatever you like into crypto with no taxable, then the second bucket that we kind of talk about the crypto to crypto that involves trades that involves DeFi, that involves liquidity, that provides or involves NFTs.
00:06:06:00 – 00:06:41:22
Dan Hannum: And then the third book is really going from crypto back into dollars, I think is more like, understandable for most people. I’m selling my crypto, I’m getting dollars from it probably have some taxable element to it. I wanted to give that context, yes, for people to understand kind of where crypto is taxed and treat it treated from. The second hard part is that within crypto on my kind of stocks or bonds, the reporting and brokerages don’t really speak to each other very well, and most investors are using multiple different platforms in exchanges if you’re using multiple different centralized exchanges, using multiple different wallets, using multiple different wallet addresses.
00:06:42:09 – 00:07:30:18
Dan Hannum: And so what happens on Coinbase is typically just a sliver of your overall activity. And so when Coinbase or another centralized exchange provides you with a 10 ninety nine b or ten ninety nine form, they’re only going to be reporting what happened on that exchange. But for most people, you know, not your keys, not your coins, right? You are sending your crypto off of the exchange into a ledger, a Trezor, a metamask, and then either, you know, sitting in there for cloud storage or using that crypto in various ways. And so the value add that someone who brings us essentially we aggregate all of your activity across all of your exchanges, all of your wallets, all of your blockchains into one singular place that gives you a holistic tax report that encompasses every transaction you’ve ever had, instead of just what happened on climate or just what happened on Kraken, or just what happened on RTX.
00:07:31:09 – 00:07:39:26
Dan Hannum: So I wanted to give a kind of overview of how crypto is treated and then kind of like the solution that we provide and having to dive into how we do it and then all that type of stuff.
00:07:40:20 – 00:08:13:26
Steven Miller: Yeah, I mean, it’s really interesting the way that you guys do bring in everything. I think that a lot of crypto tax solutions, at least I’ve noticed over the course of the last few years they’ve had a lot of difficulty finding ways to integrate things like NFTs and tracking MetaMask, as well as every single exchange. It’s easy enough to track an exchange, but now that we’re in this era where things are getting more complicated with DeFi and DAOs and NFTs, how is it that somebody can go about navigating the mistakes associated with crypto tax reporting when you really look at the Zen Ledger solution, how it simplifies everything?
00:08:14:11 – 00:08:47:11
Steven Miller: Yeah, no. I mean, great point. You know, I think the last two or three years have been really advantageous for us because we were able to really leverage the integrations and the bandwidth and support we have and some of our competitors have not. So with defined end with NFTs, these things are happening on chain, which makes it somewhat easier to track but harder to track. We don’t know how to look at things on chain. And so what I mean by that is if you look at like a client based and typically they’ll give you a CSV file or an API. So essentially the exchange is saying Stephen did X, Y and Z on this exchange.
00:08:47:20 – 00:09:20:03
Steven Miller: And it’s somewhat of a seamless transition until it becomes a little bit tricky because there’s no user name for MetaMask. There is no user name when you connect your wallet to Uniswap. There’s no username when you connect your wallet to OpenSea, right? So all this activity flows through your wallet address. And so the beauty of Zealander is we allow you to simply ingest that activity through your public receiving address. So it’s not trying to open up OpenSea and know manually enter. I bought it for this order for this, but was a fee was a dollar equivalent. We automate and simplify all of that for you.
00:09:20:17 – 00:09:55:07
Steven Miller: So for a typical ingestion, you’re looking at only importing your centralized activity. You’re then importing, you’re onto an activity, you’re selecting MetaMask on the wallet import tab. You’re entering your ETH address, your apex address of your phantom address or whatever you’re using. And then we mix in all that on chain data with your off chain data to provide these comprehensive reports so we can see that you bought whatever five thousand dollars worth of Ethan. You send it to MetaMask. Then from MetaMask, you connected that with Uniswap and then provided liquidity, or you connected your MetaMask to OpenSea and used five thousand to buy NFT one two three.
00:09:55:20 – 00:10:38:16
Steven Miller: And then you traded that NFT. So we can start to see these on and movements. The hard part about defining lefties is really the the number of transactions start to add up pretty quickly when you’re moving your assets around, when you’re providing liquidity, when you’re on, when you’re taking your quality back, when you’re staking, when you’re buying and selling and trading enough to use those transactions can rack up really quickly. And if you’re not using a software, it’s it’s almost near impossible to try to track this stuff with a Google spreadsheet or like handwritten notes. So the value out of it, being able, being able for us to take that onto an activity and mix it with your ossian activity from a centralized exchanges wherein centralized providers like a BlockFi or net zero Celsius or Voyager, if you’re trying to earn like centralized yield on your crypto.
00:10:39:11 – 00:10:42:14
Steven Miller: And so that’s that’s currently how we would do things
00:10:43:07 – 00:11:15:22
Steven Miller: in a lot of ways. I mean, it really is kind of magic to me because a lot of what you guys are doing, it’s integrating so many different APIs and so many different chains said it makes most other tax reporting software seem very, very rudimentary and like, almost understated. You guys have one of those, in my opinion, the most powerful solutions out there on the market. And as I’m thinking about that, I can’t help but like want to go into this little like sub topic of, OK, we’re now in this.
00:11:15:26 – 00:11:38:29
Steven Miller: World where the IRS has started making a few more decisions like this recent development on staking rewards and accounting for airdrops. How does that all play into, you know, the way that you guys report on on chain data and how our wallet addresses actually are interacting with one another?
00:11:39:16 – 00:12:16:11
Steven Miller: Sure. Yeah. And I mean, it’s funny you bring up the integrations because we essentially used to say that we were there TurboTax for crypto, right? But when you really look at what we do, it’s it’s more like planning for crypto because we ingest so many different things and aggregate them in one place. It’s a funny thing to see us evolve. I think right now we support over 500 different exchanges, over 12000 different token types, over 60 different blockchains there, 50 different DeFi protocols and NetEase. So that like bandwidth of that coverage is pretty extensive. When you look at the government, typically they’re relatively slow to move and and slow to provide guidance.
00:12:17:01 – 00:12:48:24
Steven Miller: So one thing that makes DeFi and NFT tax is tricky is there’s no IRS Section two, paragraph three that says if you traded a cool cat for a doodle, like, here’s how it’s treated right. There is no guidance, so we have to take this conservative guidance around how the IRS views fungible assets and basically apply that to nonfungible assets. And so there are some court cases in play from our understanding. The IRS has not provided specific guidance on these staking rewards yet.
00:12:49:13 – 00:13:20:07
Steven Miller: And what I mean by that is the Jared case, which is the one that you’re speaking about, essentially to kind of give guidance or an overview for people who are listening. A couple is essentially saying that staking rewards should only be treated as taxable events when you sell or dispose of your assets. And so the easy analogy is like, let’s say I’m a farmer and I’m, you know, I’m growing tomato plants from the from the current iris guidance. Every time a tomato pops up on my farm, I now owe income on that.
00:13:20:25 – 00:13:57:15
Steven Miller: But in like reality, right? You cannot grow as many families as you want. It’s just when you sell those tomatoes, then you have income from, you know, selling your property. And so that’s kind of the the argument, in a nutshell, is that staking rewards should be treated as non-taxable events when you first receive them and only be treated as taxable when you dispose of the asset. And so they they had a great case, and we’re starting to see that play out in court. But having gone through Federal Tax Court or IRS Tax Court. And so the IRS itself has not said that this is the way that we were going to treat things, but it looks like it could be right.
00:13:57:17 – 00:14:30:12
Steven Miller: And so right now, what we would recommend for users out there is to file their stinking income as income at the time of receipt. And as you mentioned, on the software side, we can easily automate for you so we can see that every day, every every hour, every week, every month you are observing receiving, you know, five x y z tokens. And those X y z tokens are worth five dollars each. So we can see that you have twenty five dollars of income coming in every day and then we’ll aggregate that income. You know, with your airdrops, with your staking, with your mining, with your forks.
00:14:30:18 – 00:15:09:25
Steven Miller: Anything that’s ordinary income in aggregate that together on your income tax reports. So one thing that you know, we try to do is work very closely with the IRS and understand how are they thinking about these things? We want to be able to be in the room with them and guide them on. Here’s how things work, right? That doesn’t mean they’re going to listen to us and just go with what we say, but least are open to listening and not just going to provide guidance without having any knowledge. So we’re hopeful that we’ll see, you know, increased and improved guidance come out, especially around a lot of defined NFT activity that is kind of in a gray area where you can now take a conservative approach or an aggressive approach.
00:15:10:03 – 00:15:19:28
Steven Miller: But I think we as well as our customers and potential new entrants into crypto, want to know that like this is how it’s treated and then you just plan for that instead of having ambiguity.
00:15:20:26 – 00:15:52:17
Steven Miller: So I’m glad that you kind of took that on to ambiguity because a really decent Segway for what I’m curious about next, and that’s rug pulls. So right now in the space more than ever, I mean, it was reported last year that we had over, I believe, $2 billion in scams. And while that’s extremely unfortunate, that’s kind of the nature of a young industry, right? You have to deal with and get through those types of barriers. But as of right now, it’s really complicated, at least for some people to start wrapping their heads around how they can take those losses or show those losses.
00:15:52:29 – 00:16:09:20
Steven Miller: Do you guys have any recommendations, whether that’s built into your software or just in general, or how we can better account for these rug pulls and show that they actually are capital losses, even if it’s something like an NFT where you still may have proof of having an NFT that it has zero ascertainable value?
00:16:10:24 – 00:16:47:03
Steven Miller: Yeah. I mean, the hard part right now is that we have. Recent changes to how things are reported as lost or stolen that essentially exclude crypto activity. And what I mean by that is typically to report your crypto activity as lost or stolen, you need a natural disaster. That’s kind of hard to have in crypto, right? We have like, you know, we have some events where liquidity dries up or, you know, assets go down 80 percent, but it may seem like a disaster to us, but it’s not a natural disaster. So the hard part is that essentially mark your assets is lost or stolen is not as easy a straightforward as you think it would be.
00:16:47:27 – 00:17:18:24
Steven Miller: And so when we look at rug bulls or we look at a product that may, you know, may have had good traction and then just kind of died out, the easiest thing for you to do to try to take a loss on that is to have some type of sale event on that. And that doesn’t mean, you know, it doesn’t mean you bought it for 10. You need to sell it for nine. Maybe you bought it for $10 dollars and you’re selling it for a penny, right? As long as you have that sale price on it. We can say you bought it for 10. You sold it for a penny. You now have this loss locked them. So right now, there’s no unrealized losses.
00:17:18:26 – 00:17:53:25
Steven Miller: So if I buy it at 10 and I hold it at one, I don’t have an unrealized loss of nine. I just I’m just holding the asset. So the best thing that we’ve seen is either to use like a harvest address where you can send it to like a burn contract or to try to sell it somewhere on OpenSea. You go on Rarible, go on SuperRare, go on a platform and listed for a dollar. There is actually a lot of people out there that I’m building a business around, that they’re going up and scooping all these junk trash and feeds at very, very low cost and just hoping that, like one of them pops off to 100 bucks or 50 bucks or 10 bucks and covers like all the low ones that they’re buying.
00:17:54:11 – 00:18:24:20
Steven Miller: So our recommendation would be to try to list it and try to sell it. And that’s going to put you in a much better position and trying to market is lost or stolen. The other type of item that we see a lot with this is more like scam airdrops, where you look in your wallet and you see some like random token. And what we used to say a few years ago was you should probably send that to a burn address. You should probably try to get rid of it. But now you’ve seen that some of these hackers or scammers are embedding kind of malicious software into these tokens.
00:18:24:22 – 00:18:55:19
Steven Miller: And if you interact with the token, you can sometimes open yourself up to more risk. And so within that, what we do with the software is allow you the ability to just simply ignore a transaction. So instead of having to buy or sell it or trade it, you can just ignore the incoming. So we can ignore that 25 x y z tokens came in. As long as you don’t buy or sell it or trade it or anything, you’re not going to really have a liability on that. So there’s ways to kind of get around how to do that. But typically the D lost or stolen or it’s going to take more than just marketing is lost or stolen.
00:18:55:21 – 00:19:27:13
Steven Miller: You’re going to kind of prove that with documentation that’s hard to do as a rug. It’s hard to do if if you’ve been hacked, it’s hard to do if you’ve given up your trade through your passphrase. And so there is is this other element of. Was it an actual scam, do you actually get this as it gets stolen for you or were you kind of a victim of a scam, right? And typically the victim is it’s harder to prove. Stephen Fisher’s me and I give a message raise. I still gave him a raise, right? So it’s like I still kind of fell for it.
00:19:27:23 – 00:19:46:17
Steven Miller: It’s harder to be part of the show that someone actually stole these items for you from you. Yeah. Long story short, I would definitely recommend if you have an asset that’s trading at ninety nine percent down from its value, try to list it for like a dollar and lock in that loss from an actual sale versus trying to say it was lost or stolen.
00:19:47:21 – 00:20:03:07
Dan Hannum: So real quick, just to clarify one thing, when you’re referring to a burning dress for somebody that is new to crypto, can you give me a little bit more context on how they can go about sending something like that to a burn address or even creating a burn address for that purpose?
00:20:03:24 – 00:20:46:18
Dan Hannum: Sure. So typically, the burn addresses will be kind of live, and some for most people, you won’t have to make one. Essentially, what you will do is your send in to the address, and the burn address is going to be very similar to any other address, right? It’s just going to be mostly ones and zeros instead of like letters. And so the key is that, you know, let’s say I’m trying to send a theorem from me to Stephen Wright. I’m going to ask you what your address is going to say zero x one, two three, and then I’m going to enter that address where it says, where do you want to send this asset to? So instead of me sending that ad that eat into Stephen’s address, I’m going to send it to the burn address and typically, like a quick Google search will show, you know, I have x y z and what’s the burn out is here.
00:20:46:27 – 00:20:57:18
Dan Hannum: You’re going to need their scan if looking like at CoinGecko or CoinMarketCap. So typically have that burn address into the the token. So I pull up token x y z. I can see the contract address, which is like the.
00:20:59:08 – 00:21:30:17
Dan Hannum: Origin address of where these things are coming from, and then I’ll see other details in there as well, such as API documentation or GitHub repos or things like that, and hopefully we can get like two two deep down the rabbit hole, but essentially that information should be relatively public. Not to that you need to necessarily create and then instead say to send it to the burn address. It’s the same steps as you sending it to a non brand address. It’s just the address is different. It’s like if you’re sending you sending regular postage mail, right, you’re going to have an address for this, you know, business or this person.
00:21:31:05 – 00:21:52:19
Dan Hannum: And so it’s just me a different address. And essentially what that address does, it doesn’t have the ability to interact. It just like receives things. And so just like this black hole for lack, a better like words of like, you send it there and it just like it’s there now and it will never change. It will never leave. You can’t get it back. And so that’s like the burn is that you were essentially disposing of the acid and you’ll never be able to get it back.
00:21:53:21 – 00:22:32:21
Dan Hannum: Awesome. Yeah, I mean, I think that is a really great clarification, though, for people to understand because the first time crypto investor is really difficult to really suss out these things over time. Right. You have to have at least, you know, kind of one or two people that you can rely on or just guidance and not necessarily financial advice, but, you know, general guidance. And this is a really important topic. I think everybody needs to focus a little bit more on. But now that we’ve kind of worked our way through the tax side of it and I think that we’ve kind of dispelled in our own way a few tax myths, I’m kind of curious about your general perception and perspective on whether we are so out of curiosity in the world of Web three right now.
00:22:33:02 – 00:22:40:04
Dan Hannum: Are there any specific projects or topics that you find are really interesting in developing that our listeners should be looking into a little bit more?
00:22:40:24 – 00:23:18:15
Dan Hannum: Sure. Yeah, I mean, it’s and that’s the exciting part about that in our business is that we get to interact with all of crypto, right, because we have to ingest all this from all of your DeFi, from your NFT, from your DAO, so you can have a 50 percent complete tax support because that’s not accurate. It has to be 100 percent. So the fun part about my job is I get to work within crypto and not just on like one sector or one one unique project while working on one project, but that one project touches a few different touchpoints. So the nice thing is between, you know, my my personal investments within crypto and then through the fund and through Zelle under, I had pretty good access into some projects.
00:23:18:29 – 00:23:50:04
Dan Hannum: The things that get me excited would probably kind of the the financialization of NCES is kind of exciting to me and really like the utility of NFTs. So most people may have heard of like the typical 10K project, which is, in my opinion, a little bit played out now. It’s just like, OK, the next thing is like a banana instead of an apple or like a cowboy instead of like a dinosaur right inside. Cool. I want you to be able to buy, sell, trade, whatever you know, whatever you like.
00:23:50:06 – 00:24:23:19
Dan Hannum: But for me that the 10k PMP launch is just not, like, very exciting anymore. So it’s like what types of entities provide utility? And so audiences have been really exciting for me. I’ve been spending a lot of a lot of capital on like sound at X Y Z and catalog that works. And items like that, where I can interact with artists that are using NFT is to fund their music development, and some music and lyrics are pretty exciting. I think the utility with NFT use is really exciting to me. I don’t know if you saw, but I think it was about a week and a half ago someone was able to use.
00:24:23:21 – 00:24:57:13
Dan Hannum: I think it was like 80 punks and take out like an 80 or an $8 million loan. And then that’s really exciting because I think some of us who have been in crypto for a while have a lot of crypto wealth, but they want to be able to access that wealth to go buy a home or go buy a home for the kids college or do whatever right. And so once you have this asset, how can you use this asset and where does the utility come from? And so that’s something that’s exciting for me. And then on the downside, I think we’re just kind of really early into into dollars in general and seeing different use cases with Dallas pop up is really exciting for me.
00:24:57:15 – 00:25:06:01
Dan Hannum: You see, some like investment, Dallas, like the law or Neptune, you see more like collector dollars like pleaser Dow,
00:25:07:17 – 00:25:15:10
Dan Hannum: which is like our which is like, super exciting. So I think Dallas are an exciting area of.
00:25:18:14 – 00:25:51:21
Dan Hannum: Just an exciting area where a lot of innovation is happening, I think we’re still really, really early on, right? So like the Dow or Decentralized Autonomous Organization, isn’t really decentralized or autonomous just yet. It’s more of like just an owl. But we like to call it it out. So I think ours is ready to layer on this decentralization, and the autonomy to these organizations afterwards gets really exciting. Right now, it’s people in discord and using Snapchat to make their trade. It’s not really decentralized autonomous. So but the the promise or the promise of that technology in that stack is really exciting.
00:25:52:15 – 00:26:31:23
Dan Hannum: And then I guess what’s really exciting for me is when we look at these items within crypto, the coolest products that we’ve seen is really leaning on this composability layer. So stacking DeFi with NFTs then into dollars and then the combination of these items. So I think when we look up, we’re going to start to see ways that you can use NFTs that are really exciting and in ways that you can interact with online communities and earn capital or just have kind of that fellowship or community online. I’m still super bullish on Web3 online communities, social tokens, NFTs dials and these that I think we’re just really early on.
00:26:31:25 – 00:26:38:14
Dan Hannum: But I like to kind of sit at the cutting edge and the innovation layer and see what’s happening and kind of experiment and kind of on the fringe.
00:26:39:10 – 00:27:09:21
Dan Hannum: And see, I really do have a big appreciation for that one to one. The fact that you’re willing to step out on that cutting edge and be, you know, willing to explore those new topics in the space. That’s always a lot of fun and I personally have a big appreciation for that as well. DeFi just never really did it for me. But again, I digress. A day just is what it is there. But you have a lot of unique, you know, solutions that are coming out in that space like, you know, within the NFTs that are wrapping crypto assets like charging particles.
00:27:10:06 – 00:27:41:24
Dan Hannum: And then you also now have additional platforms out there that are making massive steps forward for DAO infrastructure like upstream. They’re they’re really they really are moving quite fast. And the thing that I do want to say before we wrap up is did. Fortunately, Zen Ledger is at the cutting edge, and I really do appreciate you taking the time to come on and tell us a little bit more about your platform and how at the very same time, we can all be a little more cutting edge by plugging into that ledger and doing our taxes with your platform. So thank you very much for that.
00:27:42:11 – 00:28:13:17
Dan Hannum: Just for our listeners, real quick, I do want to make sure that I mention we do have a promotional code for you if you want to try them ledger and get on this year for your tax reporting. You can use current 10 that’s current 10 at checkout over ONS and ledger, and you’ll be able to get a little discount on your Send Ledger subscription. But before we go, one quick thing I always like to ask our guests is, is there? Is there a final thought that you want to leave our listeners with or tell them a little bit more about where they can connect with you?
00:28:14:26 – 00:28:52:01
Dan Hannum: Sure. I mean, I think one thing that we’ve seen since I started in crypto is there’s people that had a hesitancy to get involved with encrypted because in recounting a tax perspective, they ran businesses outside. They have real estate, they have stocks, bonds. They just didn’t want to mess up their taxes by getting involved in crypto. And so I think the value that we provide from Zoolander is allowing new entrants and existing entrants to easily comply with existing tax regulations and have an easy, clean, simple and cost effective way to do that. And so our job is to be able to allow you to go try all these things, go buy an NFT, go use and actually go sell one, go trade gold, provide.
00:28:52:10 – 00:29:28:00
Dan Hannum: If I provide liquidity, we we we joke all the time. But I think the net new users in coming from Kanye and not compound. And so this culture and community and capital is so interesting versus just where can I earn yield on? But how can you layer those on top, right? So I guess my parting thought is just, you know, if you’re kind of sitting on the sidelines or having got into crypto, we’d love to have you. You know, we want to streamline and automate this for you so that you can get into whatever you like and know that throughout the year and at the end of the year, you can get your taxes and in portfolio management handle, I guess where to find us.
00:29:29:13 – 00:30:07:18
Dan Hannum: I’m pretty active on Twitter my end of the day. And then you have eight hours to handle the Senator Io, maybe willing to be in the show notes as well. So if you have additional questions or need help, let us know. I guess the very last thing I would add is that we have a few different options for users. And what I mean by that is we have more of like a self-service option. So if you use like a TurboTax or an H&R Block or a tax act and you typically use that to file, we have partnerships with all those platforms, but you can simply take our crypto reports and import them with your W-2 or your K-1 or your ten, ninety nine or whatever activity you have outside of crypto.
00:30:08:01 – 00:30:34:17
Dan Hannum: We then also have a tax professional suite, so if you have a tax professional that you work with, you can simply invite them into our suite and they can simply log into your account. Download all your reports and follow them for you. No, no third option is we actually have tax professionals and tax attorneys on staff. So if you’re looking and saying, Hey, I just want someone to go do this for me, I want them to hand all my crypto, not crypto activity, we have that as well. So we can kind of support you, whether you’re more of a self-service or any, that kind of high touchpoint. So
00:30:36:05 – 00:30:47:01
Dan Hannum: yeah, no, I appreciate you having us on and we’ll link to some of the media or Twitter handles in the show notes. And have you connect with anyone offline and be a resource for you guys? Come in for it.
00:30:47:20 – 00:31:04:23
Dan Hannum: Awesome. Then thanks again. So much for joining us. It was a really great episode today for those of you at home that are joining us. Make sure you like and subscribe on our YouTube channel. Give us a follow and review us on your preferred podcast platform. But until next time, we hope you’ll join us again. Stay cryptocurrency. See you next time.
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