Asaf Naim on Safely Sending Crypto with Kirobo (Episode 207)
On this episode, Asaf Naim joins the show to share how Kirobo is making the process of sending crypto simple, safe, and secure.
Asaf is an experienced accountant and veteran entrepreneur with a master’s degree in business taxation. Asaf has served at companies like Bank Leumi and Ernst & Young, as well as leading multiple startups in Israel and the United States. He’s passionate about blockchain technology and its applications for business.
The following transcript was created using artificial intelligence. There will be some grammatical errors below.
00:00:00:04 – 00:01:26:18
Richard Carthon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Crypto Current, your host here, Richard Carthon, and today I have a special guest all the way out in Tel Aviv working on an extremely cool project that you need to be learning more about that I’m excited to learn more about. We have Asaf with Kirobo. How are you doing today?
00:01:28:04 – 00:01:30:01
Asaf Naim: Very good. Thank you for having me.
00:01:31:05 – 00:01:36:20
Richard Carthon: Of course. Well, before we dive into Kirobo, first, want to learn more about you. Give us some background on yourself.
00:01:38:03 – 00:02:25:25
Asaf Naim: Okay. So, I’m Asaf Naim, Kirobo CEO. In my background, I’m an accountant. I have a masters degree in taxation and I taught myself how to program. So, this is how like, you know, my friends as a tax office and they know that I know how to program and he has like a few customers that turn to him way back in 2014 about Crypto. And he said, like, maybe you should, you know, more than me. So, this is how I go into the Crypto world and basically this is how I start my journey. I learned about that and I fascinated about that and that is how we start.
00:02:26:26 – 00:02:39:06
Richard Carthon: Got it. So, 2015 you first learn about it and you start to go along your journey, but what made you start your company, Kirobo? So, like tell us what it is and how did you get from the concept to where it is today?
00:02:41:03 – 00:03:08:12
Asaf Naim: Okay. So, basically we have a few clients that made a mistake, a human mistake. So, for example, one of these guys sent 200,000 USD to their own address. So, you know, and it was like, I was shocked that this has happened, that this could happen. So, this is a first problem that we see.
00:03:08:28 – 00:03:56:25
Asaf Naim: And the other problem, that someone lost access to his wallet. So, I thought, Oh, this is a problem that needs to deal with. So, I found my partner, my technical partner, Tal, and we established the company. The first product that we have is the undo button. We work on, I like to say we develop buttons, but we’re working on a few different technology. The first one is the undo button. So, if you made a mistake, you can retrieve the money back. And it goes with a very simple method, basically. This is a unique transaction with a passcode.
00:03:58:09 – 00:04:24:14
Asaf Naim: When I send you the money, the money’s live in my wallet and then you need to type the right passcode. As long as you didn’t type the right passcode, I can retrieve the money back. Once you type the right passcode, that’s it, I cannot retrieve the money anymore. So, this is the first button that we launched. The second button is the peer-to-peer swap button.
00:04:24:22 – 00:05:03:16
Asaf Naim: I don’t know if you know, but if you go to Uniswap, for example, and you try to purchase some token, so, you see that there is a slippage and the slippage is massive, by the way. Like, let’s say that you buy 100 Ether. So, the slippage is huge. So, I thought people should do peer-to-peer, but the problem is no one, is like, who’s going to send first, right? If I’m going to send you and you send me, assuming that we don’t know each other, so, there is no way that I will send this transaction.
00:05:03:18 – 00:05:59:01
Asaf Naim: This is why people use OTC or Uniswap, because it’s a safe way to do that. But with the peer-to-peer swap, it’s actually different because I can send it to you, and if you didn’t send me, I can cancel my transaction and if you send me. So, the transaction is valid and both of the side get the money. And by the way, in two weeks, we will launch the basically the bulbs. So, you can publish a transaction and people can immediately send you the money and you can complete the transaction, because currently it’s done by Telegram and Gold. So, and I think this will create a massive impact on the market.
00:05:59:03 – 00:06:19:03
Richard Cathon: No doubt. So, I want to spend time a little bit on each of them. So first, we’re going to start with the undo button. So, previously coming on this call, I got to see it myself and the major challenge that you’re talking about is for the lot of newbies and people who are trying to send money for the first time. And it’s very scary. And if you mess up again, it’s a one way transaction, so, once you send it, doesn’t mean you can pull it back.
00:06:19:10 – 00:06:42:24
Richard Carthon: So, you basically been able to create this called undo button where now you can send a transaction, a person can then go and validate that yes, that is indeed my address. And then, basically give you a passcode and then once you put in the passcode, the transaction goes through. Again, I got to witness this firsthand and I thought this is extremely cool and a very safe way for your first entry in the Crypto being that safe transaction where you don’t necessarily have to worry about your money being sent to the wrong place. Go ahead.
00:06:42:26 – 00:07:08:24
Asaf Naim: You’re right. I have to say that, you know, when we tried to figure out who is the customer. So, initially we thought it’s only the newbies. But then, I’m sad to say that I sent 3,000,000 Kiro to the wrong address. It’s not actually the wrong address, it’s the right address, but this is not the address that support the specific token and the token is stuck.
00:07:09:14 – 00:07:54:21
Asaf Naim: And I see guys that made the mistake, that they have a lot of experience. For example, someone sent 220,000 USD to the wrong address and he’s coming to the group and starts talking about that. So, I was really, you know, anxious to know how it happened. So I told him, like, I asked him how it’s happened. So he said, listen, I go to DEXTool and I search for a specific addresses to make a unique transaction and suddenly I see a transaction that I really appreciate and want to do the same transaction, so, I transferred my money from Binance to my address, but basically I transfer to the address that I watched.
00:07:55:11 – 00:07:55:27
Richard Carthon: Oh, no.
00:07:55:29 – 00:08:44:28
Asaf Naim: So basically, it transferred 220,000 USD to the wrong address. Now, let’s stop it for one second and imagine that. You know this guy wakes up in the morning, brushes his teeth, got a cup of coffee and then, he search for a unique thing to do in order to make some money and then suddenly, boom, 220,000 USD is lost. Like, imagine how we feel. So, this is a, sorry. Sorry about that. So, this is what happens actually on the Blockchain every day. And by the way, so far, people transferred through our system almost $1.6 billion.
00:08:45:12 – 00:08:45:27
Richard Carthon: Wow.
00:08:45:29 – 00:09:09:01
Asaf Naim: And about 0.6 percent out of them retrieve. So, people got back. So, we estimate this is what happened in the real world. So, if we, you know, compare that to Bitcoin, it’s like $35,000,000 a day that people make mistake. And when you do the mistake, you don’t publish this on Facebook, right?
00:09:09:03 – 00:09:35:14
Richard Carthon: Right. Yeah, that’s not something that people share more often. And I really think this is a wake up call for a lot of people. And a lot of people that are listening to this show are probably going to have a a use case where that happened. For example, I can relate to that as well. I have sent a significant amount of money to not necessarily the wrong address, but forgetting a unique like, UID code. I think I was trying to transfer my EOS from one address to another, and I forgot that special extra thing you’re supposed to add and all of it’s gone.
00:09:35:18 – 00:10:02:21
Richard Carthon: So, just any time and, especially for me, the first time that I send any type of new Blockchain from one currency to another, especially if a significant amount, I always try to send the bare minimum just so I can make sure it’s going to the right place. So, what this is doing, what the undo button allows you to do is even if you want to your first time send a significant amount of money and make sure it’s going to the right place, you can have the confidence that if you mess up, you can at least undo it and get your money back.
00:10:02:23 – 00:10:03:08
Asaf Naim: Exactly.
00:10:03:10 – 00:10:04:29
Richard Carthon: And like, that, extremely powerful.
00:10:05:16 – 00:10:22:09
Asaf Naim: You know, someone invested in the company a few months ago. I think it was $1.2 million. So, he said, should I? And all the investment goes through the system. So he said, should I make a test transaction?
00:10:22:11 – 00:10:51:00
Asaf Naim: So, I said, no, you don’t need to do a test transaction. If you made a mistake, you can retrieve it. And by the way, yesterday, I sent about 4,200 USD to someone and suddenly, my secretary called me and she said, it’s the wrong address. Like, it’s not a huge amount.
00:10:51:15 – 00:10:52:00
Richard Carthon: Right, but still.
00:10:52:02 – 00:11:09:07
Asaf Naim: Yeah, it’s still and it’s happened every day. And by the way, I will tell you a secret. I think the banking industry will implement this technology in the Fiat market, because even in Fiat market, there is a lot of mistake when you send in your money and Crypto is the space.
00:11:09:09 – 00:11:52:24
Richard Carthon: And it’s a really interesting point that you bring up there. And yes, one of the things that you lose with this is speed, but if that means that you’re not losing your money, people are willing to take that extra step. Like, in some scenarios, you do want to have that speed to move quickly, but in others, you want it to be safe. Like one of the reasons, even though it is an absolute pain in traditional finance, if you send a wire and it takes five to eight business days and everything else, they do everything to make sure it’s going to the right place, they’re getting the exact number, they’re doing all the checks, all that stuff. And in Crypto, yes, you can send it instantaneously, but you can also instantaneously lose all your money. So again, I think this is just another good check, another safe way to securely move your money. So, really cool product.
00:11:52:26 – 00:12:32:18
Asaf Naim: I have to say that I don’t see the speed issue because first of all, the speed is like regular speed, but most of the guys do two transactions. So, it’s basically much faster. And about B2B that you mentioned, so we have a few B2B deals that we signed lately. And they ask to add a list, an address book that you can upload to the system. So, we built a B2B version of the system, so, you can upload addresses and write notes and everything and you can send.
00:12:32:20 – 00:13:05:01
Asaf Naim: And again, we are not the custodian, we never touch the money. There is no way. For example, let’s say that you send $1,000,000 and one second after that the server is down, so, the recipient will not be able to collect the money, but the sender can always retrieve the money because the control is on the sender. And this is a unique way that we build the system because we felt the custodian is not right the punch.
00:13:06:00 – 00:13:25:25
Richard Carthon: Yeah. And I think that’s the right call. And giving the power to the person sending the money, especially through all this transaction, it’s definitely, I think, the right approach. It gives them a lot more control and it gives them a lot more of that security of knowing that they are driving what’s going on through this transaction. I kind of what to spend more time on the P2P piece of it, right?
00:13:25:27 – 00:13:52:24
Richard Carthon: So, the person-the-person you’re helping to solve that, can we kind of just walk through that a little bit more? So, me and you want to send each other money, like you said with Uniswap, you go and there’s slippage, so, if you’re trying to send 300 Eth, you’re not going to send 300 Eth, you’re probably going to send like, I don’t know, let’s call it 295, 296, if you’re lucky. So, with the person to person, is it that instead of that slippage being so significant now I’m able to send you actually 300 or as I might send you 299, because of course, there’s gas fees and everything else. Like how does that work?
00:14:38:06 – 00:14:59:12
Asaf Naim: So basically, we need to decide on the price. Let’s say that the 100 Ether is, well, let’s say 400 Kiro. Okay, so we need to decide on that. And then, you send the 100 Ether. You see that the Ether is going away from your account. And then, I need to send that 400 Kiro.
00:14:59:26 – 00:15:35:02
Asaf Naim: As long as I didn’t send the 400 Kiro, you can cancel the transaction. So, for example, let’s say that I over delay and now the price is changing and I don’t want to do the deal and you don’t want to do the deal, you can cancel the transaction and nothing happened. And again, if I send the 400 Kiro and you cancel the transaction, my transaction will fail, so. So, there is no trust issue and there is no way to doubt about it, to feel unsafe or not secure.
00:15:35:22 – 00:16:02:24
Richard Carthon: Right. So, that’s cool. So, for example, let’s say that I would come to Tel Aviv and I was trying to get into the local currency and I have some Eth east that I’m willing to use. So, let’s say that I want to sell two of my Eth for let’s call it 1,000 of the local dollars, right? So, basically, I would sent my two Eth and then, as soon as you then upload the local currency in Crypto, once they both entered to that P2P period, that’s when they would then shift.
00:16:02:26 – 00:16:14:24
Richard Carthon: But let’s say that, you know, I say I want the two Eth, but I want it for 1,000, but all of a sudden now it’s worth 800. Now that person doesn’t want to do it, they cancel it. I get my two Eth and they get their money back or they just never send it. Okay.
00:16:14:27 – 00:16:15:12
Asaf Naim: Exactly.
00:16:16:00 – 00:16:28:10
Richard Carthon: No, I think that’s very powerful. So, thank you for breaking that down. And then, I want to spend time on the last one. So, can you explain one more time, like what is that last element that you say you just dropped? So, basically you put a transaction.
00:16:28:12 – 00:17:01:18
Asaf Naim: Let’s say that you understand now that you know, before we launch, so, I take my team, the marketing team, because the technical guys already know that. So, I said guys, like, one Ether was 4,000 Kiro, right? What will happen if I now type 100 Ether? How many Kiro will we see? So, everyone say 400,000. So, I said, really? Let’s see. And then, we see 342.
00:17:02:28 – 00:17:26:12
Asaf Naim: So, they said, “Wow, that’s amazing.” So, I said, “Okay, now I understand that I’m going to the peer-to-peer swap.” And what is the problem? I don’t know. I don’t have either party to swap with. And this is not a problem that exists on Uniswap. This is not like, if you go to OTC, you find the other party.
00:17:26:23 – 00:18:15:11
Asaf Naim: So, on the peer-to-peer swap, this is a problem. So, when we launched, we just opened a Telegram group that is meant for that. But now in hopefully two weeks, we will release the audio book, so, I can come and say I’m willing to sell 100 Ether and to buy 400,000 Kiro for example. And then, other party needs can come, they don’t even need to talk to me. And then, they can see the order, then they complete the order. If the price has already changed, I can cancel the order. So, I’ve seen it happen.
00:18:16:22 – 00:18:34:00
Richard Carthon: Wow. Okay, got it. So, that’s where it’s going to be super powerful because now you’re kind of creating that OTC, but of peer-to-peer places, right? So, you have all these orders that are there and you’re like, Okay, I want to fill this one. So basically, I now can see that that one’s there, able to help make that transaction happen and now everyone is happy.
00:18:34:06 – 00:18:56:01
Asaf Naim: By the way, there is a, in bold way, you can see the difference between other dex’s. So, basically, before you swap, you know exactly how much you get. If you go to two other dex, I don’t want to mention names and you know exactly how much you earn for this transaction.
00:18:56:20 – 00:18:57:05
Richard Carthon: Yeah, I mean.
00:18:57:07 – 00:18:59:27
Asaf Naim: And by the way, both sides will earn.
00:19:00:28 – 00:19:02:13
Richard Carthon: Both sides will earn, got it. Yeah.
00:19:02:24 – 00:19:53:16
Asaf Naim: Because, by the way, I said in the first example that they said 100 Ether for 400,000 Kiro. So, now you guys think that the seller, the guy that sells the 100 Ether is, sorry, the guy that sent the 400 Kiro is losing, because on Uniswap it was 352. So, I said let’s see what happened. If he’s going to sell 400,000 Kiro on Uniswap. So, we switch the direction and put 400 and then, they see he’s only going to get 83 Ether instead of 100. So, both side win because you do it OTC, you buy on the market price and you don’t affect the price. And I think it’s powerful.
00:19:53:18 – 00:20:20:03
Richard Carthon: Right. No, that is powerful. So, thanks for making that clear distinction. And I mean, obviously, Kirobo has very powerful tools, three different instances. Everyone listening to make sure you go and check that out. But one of the things that I think this also has a lot of opportunity to kind of, like you were saying, is the DeFi space. So, how do you think as more companies are starting to develop more into decentralized finance, that they could be able to use a tool like Robo?
00:20:22:12 – 00:21:30:02
Asaf Naim: First of all, we are working on two major tools that we want to integrate. I cannot talk about that more than that, but hopefully in two months we will release and everyone will see before we release and after we release. But I think that the DeFi, I can only suggest you can understand between the world. So, basically, most of that, like, if you see two years ago, so, two years ago, people, most of the trade was on centralized exchange. And now, we see a huge movement into the DeFi, meaning decentralized, decentralized exchange, decentralized product. And let’s say if you are on Coinbase and you have the problem and you lost the password or you lost something, so, you can contact Coinbase and they will help you.
00:21:30:28 – 00:22:27:10
Asaf Naim: But if you are doing that from your own wallet on DeFi, no one can help you. And this is increasing the problem and people don’t understand it. I don’t know if you know, but people. Well, you know, sorry about that, but, you know, sometimes life sucks. People like, you know, dying and there is no one that can help them or the family. If someone died and never shared their private key. And if someone lost access to his wallet. So, I can only say that this is two issues that I need and someone needs to deal with that. Someone need to figure out how to solve them. And this is all I can say.
00:22:28:09 – 00:22:45:12
Richard Carthon: Gotcha. Alright, well, we’ll keep it at that for now, and it looks like in two months there might be some more news on that. But man, you’ve been able to share a lot of information with us, I have two final fun questions as we kind of wrap up here is with all the information that you have right now, if you can impart two pieces of wisdom to yourself, what would you share?
00:22:49:10 – 00:23:48:00
Asaf Naim: I think, you know what? I want to say about a completely different side of the coin. So, I see that a lot of governments are now checking the option to issue a Blockchain based currency, and all of them are afraid of infecting the bank system, you know, because the bank system, if I have my own currency, I don’t need the banks. And my insight on that is that I don’t think it’s a problem, because today, if you have 100,000 USD on Fiat money, so, you put it in the bank, the bank take this money and give the other people like credit and stuff and make a lot of money on that and give you basically zero percent.
00:23:49:20 – 00:24:27:26
Asaf Naim: When the coin is Blockchain based, the bank will start chasing you and ask you to put the money inside the bank. And the way to do that is by sharing the profit. So, I think it will, the bank is still going to be there, but the profit is going to be much more reasonable than now. But I think the profit will also go to the actual owner of the coin.
00:24:28:19 – 00:24:49:15
Richard Carthon: Got it. So, I think that’s a cool car for the future where we’re headed with that. And I agree. As more banks are finding ways to get people to bring in their money, so, that they can share in the profits, everybody wins. Therefore, you start to get more money to increase. But I, you know, appreciate all the information you’ve dropped on us today, what is a final thought that you want to leave with all of our listeners?
00:24:51:24 – 00:25:00:18
Asaf Naim: My final thought is that you should go into DeFi. DeFi is the future, do that you will not regret.
00:25:01:19 – 00:25:08:18
Richard Carthon: Absolutely. We’ll Asaf, really appreciate all the time that you shared with us. What are the ways that people can connect with you and learn more about everything that’s going on with Kirobo?
00:25:09:22 – 00:25:19:21
Asaf Naim: We have the website. They can read and they can use the system. And we have a token, but destocking is not for US citizens, instead to Israeli or Canadian.
00:25:20:18 – 00:25:28:15
Richard Carthon: Got it. Well, no problem. We will make sure to share all that information in our show notes. And again, we appreciate all the time that you spent with us today. And for everyone listening, Stay Crypto Current.
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